Could you respect a woman in the female uniform?

[Gotham Central]

I know that it has been stated that the mini skirts on TOS were somehow related to the sense of female liberation. However, i've never really bought that idea. The women on Star Trek were supposed to be professionals who commanded a certain amount of respect. The problem is that the female uniforms were not conducive to commanding respect. The shockingly low skirts tended to over expose the women. It gave them a vulneralbility that the mend did not have to contend with.

Take for instance, the lovely Dr. Noel. I could not help but notice that her skirt barely covered her. On more than one occasion you can definately see that her hands are placed in such a way to prevent the skirt from rising too high. Indeed a number of women in the uniforms seem a bit selfconscious about the legenth. Could you really see a female captain in one of those? Even Areel Shaw's skirt was noticeably longer than that of the typical uniform. Of course she was supposed to be a lawyer, and was supposed to project a certain level of respect for her abilities. In the court room she was not a love interest, she was a prominent professional. Thus her uniform needed to reflect that. You'll note that you NEVER see her in the truly short uniform.

Bringing this full circle, the reason I did not buy the explanation that the uniforms reflected some form of liberation is that professional usually want the respect that comes with their position. That is why professional women both today and in the 60s either wore pants or more modest skirts in work environments. The female starfleet uniforms seem to work against that push for professional respect.

I'd definately like to hear the opinion of the women on this.

 

[sbk1234]

I'm not a woman, but I can honestly say that in the proper situation, I would tell the woman in the TOS uniforms that I would still respect her afterwards.

 

[Basil]

The whole point is to respect the woman for what she does and stands for, not for what she looks like. If she shows up wearing only a sandwich board, she should get the same respect as if she was wearing a business suit.

Also, not every culture subscribes to the Puritan ideal. Puerto Rican businesswomen, for instance, may wear tight fighting clothes with short skirts and 4-inch heels, but they're every bit as qualified and deserving of respect as their more Victorian-dressed sisters.

 

[Neopeius]

The skirts were hot.

That said, pants would have been more professional.

 

[Michael]

I try to respect everyone. Clothing usually doesn't equate into it.

 

[JustKate]

Bringing this full circle, the reason I did not buy the explanation that the uniforms reflected some form of liberation is that professional usually want the respect that comes with their position. That is why professional women both today and in the 60s either wore pants or more modest skirts in work environments. The female starfleet uniforms seem to work against that push for professional respect.

I don't buy that either - not for a second. Since when are teensy little skirts more "liberated" than slacks? And I also don't buy for a second the argument that "The actresses had a choice and most of them chose miniskirts to show off their lovely legs." Even if they did, so what? What difference does that make? If an actress had a part as a rancher's wife in a Western, did she get to choose a costume to show off her lovely legs? Of course not. If Trek PTB wanted them to dress like professionals, they would have done so. It was their job. But obviously TPTB wanted them to wear tiny little skirts because they liked the way the women looked in tiny little skirts.

Sorry. *steps off soapbox*

I hate to say that it depends, but it does depend. If the required uniform was a micromini, I could get past that and still respect somebody - if the rules say "You've got to wear this," well, she'd have to wear it, right?

But if she chose to wear that skimpy thing...yeah, I might think less of her - not her intelligence or anything, but definitely her good sense, and I'd also wonder what message she thought she was sending. Wearing a skirt up to your butt doesn't say "I want you to respect me for my mind," does it? And if you're a Starfleet officer on duty, wouldn't that be what you want? Speaking as a woman (who works in a male-dominated office), it certainly is what you ought to want, IMO.

But even then - yes, that's right, there's still another facet to my "it depends" - there could be mitigating factors. There have been times (and the 1960s were one of those times) when you pretty much had to wear skirts at least somewhat short or else you'd look dowdy dowdy dowdy. But even back then, there was short...and then there was really, really short. And it was perfectly possible to look tres chic in skirts that were considerably longer than the Trek women wore - for examples, you don't need to look any farther than Diana Rigg in The Avengers (when she wasn't wearing her catsuit ) and Barbara Bain in Mission: Impossible. Those women looked fabulous and were, I assure you, at the height of fashion and yet, imagine, you couldn't see their butts. They looked, in fact, beautiful, fashionable, professional, sexy and yet also like perfect ladies. Why Trek didn't think its women could pull off sexy and professional just baffles me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

To put it simply--yes, I could. IMO, maturity and professionalism is the ability to stop gawking and saying "Oooo" at people because of what they're wearing or how it fits them.

But I also believe that there was always an optional female TOS uniform that featured pants, but it was probably reserved for senior female officers above the rank of commander...

 

[Shaw]

I hate to say that it depends, but it does depend. If the required uniform was a micromini, I could get past that and still respect somebody - if the rules say "You've got to wear this," well, she'd have to wear it, right?

There were other uniform options...

This option has been used by many women in fan productions if they didn't want to wear the miniskirt uniform.

While the actresses back then may not have had a choice in the matter, the evidence is that the in-universe characters did.

 

[Gotham Central]

To put it simply--yes, I could. IMO, maturity and professionalism is the ability to stop gawking and saying "Oooo" at people because of what they're wearing or how it fits them.

But I also believe that there was always an optional female TOS uniform that featured pants, but it was probably reserved for senior female officers above the rank of commander...

The fact that women in senior level positions had the option of pants would seen to support my position that a professional woman looking to exert her authority would not go around in something that flashed the world whenever she moved. Could you imagine Jim Kirk wearing tiny gym shorts and a tank top to work?

As I said, you cannot help but notice that even a few of the actresses seem to be working hard to try and keep that uniform down when they moved.

 

[T'Bonz]

A micromini where panties (matching or not) are apt to peek out is not professional, imo.

A micro-mini is more of a dress for date or club night, not for wearing to work.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Could you respect a woman in the female uniform?

I don't know but I wouldn't mind giving it a shot.

 

[Basil]

To put it simply--yes, I could. IMO, maturity and professionalism is the ability to stop gawking and saying "Oooo" at people because of what they're wearing or how it fits them.

But I also believe that there was always an optional female TOS uniform that featured pants, but it was probably reserved for senior female officers above the rank of commander...

The fact that women in senior level positions had the option of pants would seen to support my position that a professional woman looking to exert her authority would not go around in something that flashed the world whenever she moved. Could you imagine Jim Kirk wearing tiny gym shorts and a tank top to work?

As I said, you cannot help but notice that even a few of the actresses seem to be working hard to try and keep that uniform down when they moved.

Well, Picard was frequently, often annoyingly, tugging at his uniform shirt, so it could simply be a matter of smoothing things out.

I'm not sure I even see rank stripes on any of the women in uniform pants, so why would having the option of wearing them support the authority issue? All it says is that a woman gets choices, not that one choice is better than another.

It's funny, too, how people can forget the dictates of fashion. Miniskirts made a comeback in the 80s and 90s, but cleavage was sleazy; now, cleavage is fine, as is showing thongs and piercings, but miniskirts are no longer popular. Each age and generation forms its own mores about what is appropriate, even if not everyone agrees.

 

[lonesomechild]

It's a TV show. Even today, especially today, skin is what sells. They're wearing uber short skirts b/c that's what they thought would sell the show, at least in part.

And isn't the scantily clad Trek woman (whether alien, civilian or Starfleet officer) an almost iconic figure?

In the later series' (TNG, DS9, etc) the women (with the notable exception of Counselor Troy- who is later asked to wear a uniform) all of the women wear the same pants and shirt combo as the men. I think that this says something about changing socio-cultural views about women and their role in the workplace. Glass ceiling, anyone?

 

[Kelso]

Well, in today's world it would be hard to take a professional woman seriously in that outfit. Though, my great-great-great-grandfather would have felt similarly about my wife's polo shirt and khakis. Thank goodness he never saw what she wears to the beach.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

Well, in today's world it would be hard to take a professional woman seriously in that outfit. Though, my great-great-great-grandfather would have felt similarly about my wife's polo shirt and khakis. Thank goodness he never saw what she wears to the beach.

Can WE see?

 

[Michael]

In the later series' (TNG, DS9, etc) the women (with the notable exception of Counselor Troy- who is later asked to wear a uniform) all of the women wear the same pants and shirt combo as the men.

Ever heard of the characters Seven of Nine or T'Pol?

 

[Shaw]

A micromini where panties (matching or not) are apt to peek out is not professional, imo.

A micro-mini is more of a dress for date or club night, not for wearing to work.

Well, I could respect a woman in a miniskirt...

And could imagine her in command or a position of authority too.

 

[Delta1]

I imagine every male Starfleet plebe, when first encountering an upperclassman in the skirt, lets his eyes wander just a bit.

But only once.

 

[Hambone]

In 250 years, who knows. Ladies, what you're wearing right now would have been considered scandalous 250 years ago.

 

[JustKate]

^ Oh, sure. But I think the OP's question isn't, "What do you think will be the fashion trends for professional women in the 23rd century?" At least I'm pretty sure about that. 'Cause how can we even guess?

I think what Gotham Central wants us to consider is "Does how a woman dresses affect your opinion of her? If she's supposed to be a professional, should she dress like one?"

And honestly, I think just about everybody has to answer yes to the question of "Does how a woman dresses affect your opinion of her?" Standards vary, but just about everybody has some standards, however much they vary. I might dislike bare midriffs in the office - and in fact I do - whereas someone else thinks bare midriffs are fine and considers suits too stuffy. Someone else is fine with both bare midriffs and suits but thinks flipflops are ridiculous, and then a different person is fine with bare midriffs, suits and flipflops, but (like a hardline vegan friend of mine) equates wearing leather with wearing "corpses."

And someone else might think all that revealing stuff is great...but only so long as someone they consider attractive is wearing it. I have heard that opinion before.