Cogenitor

[pookha]

I think the ep was timed perfectly.Even in the Expanse we see Trip as being against following T'Pol's guidance still whereas Archer had long come to rely on it .

it sounded as if in that case where archer and trip are drinking together that jon agreed with trip since he said they would do whatever it took.
and in xindi we do see archer ignoring both tpol and malcolm.

both jon and trip at times chose either to accept or ignore what tpol had to say.

but it still looks odd to have trip in season one counseling against getting involved and here he did.

 

[commodore64]

Archer never said, "Yeah, you're right, Trip." The answer "whatever it takes," is that he personally will do whatever necessary to destroy the Xindi weapon. It's meant ominously.

We see in season 3, it means he'll sacrifice his own soul. And he does.

 

[Trekwatcher]

I really, really like "Cogenitor" as it departs from the longstanding pan-trek tradition of happy endings "Take us out of orbit Mr. Sulu/Data/Tom...Ha ha ha...(bridge crew all laughs)".

This is a very stark episode that could not have ended on a darker note. The Cogenitor's suicide, Archer's disappointment in Trip, Trip's disappointment in himself, the failure of the couple to have a baby (at least for now) given the loss of the Cogenitor-they really did something different in this episode. Plus, the Cogenitor was extremely well acted and characterized. One of my top eps for ENT.

 

[Pensive]

ENT had some of the best episode endings

 

[angie]

I think the ep was timed perfectly.Even in the Expanse we see Trip as being against following T'Pol's guidance still whereas Archer had long come to rely on it .

it sounded as if in that case where archer and trip are drinking together that jon agreed with trip since he said they would do whatever it took.

I have to agree with commie---Archer was not agreeing with Trip's comments about T'pol's advice.We know Archer didn't want to go in to the Expanse without her counsel.My point was more Trip dismissed other cultures usually and showed limited interest except where food and sex were concerned. This continues all through the series. When he does discover something very different he doesn't try to understand it just dismisses it and in Cogenitor the consequences were very serious.However I don't feel he learned anything from his experience except to accuse Archer of listening to T'Pol too much.

 

[pookha]

ENT had some of the best episode endings

whatever its flaws and i do believe not knowing why archer changed direction is one of them , cogenitor did have one of the most powerful endings in trek.
and the last act between trip and jon one of the most well acted.

i just wish andreas had more to do.
it would have been interesting to say had a scene after the couple left and perhaps the vissian captain disclosed some closely guarded info about the life cycle, psych profile of the cogenitors.

one thing people forget is that a very alien biology could bring forth a very odd to us culture.

that perhaps considering what we have seen else where in science fiction the ability to learn is not stable with the cogenitors as possibly well their emotional state.

 

[Anna Yolei]

One of my least favorite episodes. It portrayed Trip as having no discipline or self control. While portrayal of his heart was well intentioned it was very out of character for him to be such a bad officer.

Considering the many occasions Archer butted his nose in things that may or may not have concerned him, can you blame Trip for thinking it was okay?

Archer released an entire camp of Suliban who have nowhere else to go and, as one of the characters said, could possibly be killed if found. How is that different from Trip freeing someone who for all intents and purposes had no free will?

 

[Hoshi's sis]

One of my least favorite episodes. It portrayed Trip as having no discipline or self control. While portrayal of his heart was well intentioned it was very out of character for him to be such a bad officer.

Considering the many occasions Archer butted his nose in things that may or may not have concerned him, can you blame Trip for thinking it was okay?

Archer released an entire camp of Suliban who have nowhere else to go and, as one of the characters said, could possibly be killed if found. How is that different from Trip freeing someone who for all intents and purposes had no free will?

Its like I said before, Archer is supposed to be somekind of mentor to Trip, he looks up to him. So seeing Archer doing all of this without any reprocussions, its no wonder Trip followed in his footsteps thinking that this is what Archer would have done. The only difference is that Trip is not teflon coated

 

[miriel68]

Archer has been "punished" for his helping Sulibans - we saw it in "Desert crossing". However, there is a substantial difference. Archer meddled with the affairs of Tandarans, but he didn't interfere with Tandaran's culture and in any case what he found was a precarious situation: Sulibans in prison were clearly unhappy and suffering.
Cogenitor is not unhappy when we meet him/her first: it's Trip's action which changes his perception and feelings. Also, Cogenitor is vital to Vissian reproduction cycle. Trip just showed that probably he will never become a suitable starship captain.

 

[DanCPA]

whatever its flaws and i do believe not knowing why archer changed direction is one of them , cogenitor did have one of the most powerful endings in trek.

I still remember this ending!

 

[commodore64]

Archer suffered plenty for pretty much every single thing he did -- and not just on this board. In ANIS when he dumbly brought his dog to the planet, there were diplomatic consequences that he had to fix. When the Andorians and humans found the Vulcan spy-station, there were consequences to be followed, including T'Pol being threatened to be removed.

Archer was never teflon-coated. Imo, Archer *should* be held to a higher standard and I believe he is. He holds himself to that higher standard, which is why season 3 tortured him in Home (though it's easy to miss because of the dumb booty call).

The worst thing that happened to Trip is that he got kicked out of Archer's office. Oh the Earth shall come to an end!!!!! Trip deserved a butt chewing; he caused a person to die. I believe - though there is no canon proof (maybe an off-screen moment?) - Trip took the information hard and also punished himself.

Archer has been "punished" for his helping Sulibans - we saw it in "Desert crossing". However, there is a substantial difference. Archer meddled with the affairs of Tandarans, but he didn't interfere with Tandaran's culture and in any case what he found was a precarious situation: Sulibans in prison were clearly unhappy and suffering.
Cogenitor is not unhappy when we meet him/her first: it's Trip's action which changes his perception and feelings. Also, Cogenitor is vital to Vissian reproduction cycle.

Great post!

 

[angie]

I don't think Trip punished himself for the events of Cogenitor. I really don't believe he ever got past Archer backed up T'Pol not him.His impulsiveness in Cogenitor is really no different from his yelling at the woman in Broken Bow.Despite T'pol's explanation he still saw her actions as "wrong" because Trip never really learns about other cultures just that they are wrong compared to humans.

 

[JiNX-01]

there are two episodes that should have been first season episodes.
first flight is one of them and cogenitor is the other.
really cogenitor should have been pre desert crossing.
it is just so odd that trip was the way he was in cogenitor especially in not taking more time to look further into things when in desert crossing it is trip is advising archer to be cautious about getting involved.

and it still has a big failing in not giving us more of a reason of why archer decided what he did.

when he first went into the meeting with the alien captain and the couple he himself seemed to be coming down in favor of granting charles the request for asylum.

I'm afraid it may not be that simple. On my world, when someone asks for asylum it has to be given serious consideration.
.....


I've been asked to give sanctuary to someone who believes she's been treated unfairly. I can't ignore that.
.. You can't expect me to ignore someone when they ask for my protection.

and then all of sudden we see archer going to tell charles they have to leave.

one seriously wonders if archer learned of some new info that helped him decide to not grant the reuqest the swing is so sudden .

T'Pol is with Archer as they return to Trip's quarters to deliver the bad news. And he clearly told her his decision, because she assures him he made the right one. I suspect that she had input we don't know about (tho' we could certainly guess what she would have said).

 

[miriel68]

Archer suffered plenty for pretty much every single thing he did -- and not just on this board. In ANIS when he dumbly brought his dog to the planet, there were diplomatic consequences that he had to fix. When the Andorians and humans found the Vulcan spy-station, there were consequences to be followed, including T'Pol being threatened to be removed.

I do agree with you and I think in "Cogenitor" this has been played beautifully. It is quite clear that Archer feels responsible for everything here: for the first contact which should have gone well and hasn't, for the Cogenitor and most of all, for Trip's behaviour. He is clearly very unhappy from the first moment he learns about the situation, because - like in "dear Doctor" - he has to make a decision which goes against his feelings. In the last scene he is not really angry with Trip - he is disappointed with him and his not understanding why what he had done was wrong. But he is blaming himself and he takes it as his personal defeat, and his personal burden, it's quite clear. When Trip says "you are not responsible for what happened" it sounds lame. Archer not answering him tells more than thousand words

P.S thanks for nice words!

 

[Anna Yolei]

On a tangentially related note, I went looking for the episode online, and found the original promo. The promoi, like nearly every other one for this show, really did the episode no justice and more or less amounts to "HURR THREE SEXES, NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK." The dilemma with Trip and Charles wasn't even touched upon.

UPN.

 

[pookha]

there are two episodes that should have been first season episodes.
first flight is one of them and cogenitor is the other.
really cogenitor should have been pre desert crossing.
it is just so odd that trip was the way he was in cogenitor especially in not taking more time to look further into things when in desert crossing it is trip is advising archer to be cautious about getting involved.

and it still has a big failing in not giving us more of a reason of why archer decided what he did.

when he first went into the meeting with the alien captain and the couple he himself seemed to be coming down in favor of granting charles the request for asylum.

I'm afraid it may not be that simple. On my world, when someone asks for asylum it has to be given serious consideration.
.....


I've been asked to give sanctuary to someone who believes she's been treated unfairly. I can't ignore that.
.. You can't expect me to ignore someone when they ask for my protection.

and then all of sudden we see archer going to tell charles they have to leave.

one seriously wonders if archer learned of some new info that helped him decide to not grant the reuqest the swing is so sudden .

T'Pol is with Archer as they return to Trip's quarters to deliver the bad news. And he clearly told her his decision, because she assures him he made the right one. I suspect that she had input we don't know about (tho' we could certainly guess what she would have said).

or maybe he just went to tell since she was on duty when all this went down.
there is still the chance he and the other captain could have talked.

we just wont ever know.

 

[angie]

I think we do know---Archer was learning that he couldn't impose Earth's practices on every race he came across. This was not a question of morality or political rights but rather a different biology.Humans had not encountered a species which required a cogenitor just like in Unexpected they encountered a race which used males to carry the baby. Our troops are given cultural training but Starfleet could prepare them for meeting these races since even the Vulcans hadn't met some of these people. Which is why all the diplomacy training Archer received was also limited unlike the training Kirk and Picard recived.

 

[commodore64]

^ Agreed. I think the point of this episode was that Archer had already come to many of the same conclusions T'Pol has (humans must get beyond their own provincial attitudes - as she said in Broken Bow to Trip and sometimes non-interference was best), but not all the other humans have.

Also agree about diplomatic training. Archer and crew, including Trip, are learning and growing way beyond what Starfleet could offer. By the end of season 2, Archer is providing information to Forrest (not the other way around) with suggestions about what to do regarding he Xindi attack. Life experience was a better teacher than Starfleet. And how could it not be? Hard to imagine the unexpected and prepare people for every scenario.

I do think that Trip is a good person and understands Archer is upset with him. I think he would struggle with why and review his decisions. But to your point, Angie, the one growth opportunity Trip had as a character, which the writers short changed him on, was accepting other cultures freely. I never felt like Trip met aliens "where they lived" (on their own terms) and accepted them. Even into season 4, Trip is asking T'Pol about "that book" she cares so much about as if he dismissed its value.

I do agree with you and I think in "Cogenitor" this has been played beautifully. It is quite clear that Archer feels responsible for everything here: for the first contact which should have gone well and hasn't, for the Cogenitor and most of all, for Trip's behaviour. He is clearly very unhappy from the first moment he learns about the situation, because - like in "dear Doctor" - he has to make a decision which goes against his feelings. In the last scene he is not really angry with Trip - he is disappointed with him and his not understanding why what he had done was wrong. But he is blaming himself and he takes it as his personal defeat, and his personal burden, it's quite clear. When Trip says "you are not responsible for what happened" it sounds lame. Archer not answering him tells more than thousand words.

That's almost exactly how I saw the episode. The fact Trip tries to wave off Archer's self-blame and the fact Archer doesn't allow him to means to me that the captain takes this personally ... as a personal defeat in pretty much every sense of the word: he should've been a better mentor, should've been available instead of having fun with the captain, etc.

The only thing I might disagree with you about is Archer's feelings. I think it starts as anger at Trip and then moves to defeat and self-anger. I even think - purely supposition - Archer is angry that Trip didn't follow T'Pol's orders.

P.S thanks for nice words!

Absolutely. It's nice to know other people felt the same way and you summed it up quite beautifully. Welcome to the board!

 

[angie]

We know Trip as a gregarious caring guy unless you do something "alien". He gets along with Kov so well because Kov is very interested in human culture. When he talks about T'pol's "Bible" --it is in human terms rather than acknowledging it has a name. Archer refers to it correctly more than once showing an acknowledgement he paid attention and learned. It is also a sign of respect to refer to a spiritual book by it's title both to the book and the person who follows it.

I agree with you about Archer's anger. He quickly realizes it isn't Trip he is angry at but rather himself.Though I agree he is angry Trip didn't follow T'Pol's suggestion or orders especially since she is in charge when Archer is away despite arguements to the contrary.

 

[miriel68]

[/quote]The only thing I might disagree with you about is Archer's feelings. I think it starts as anger at Trip and then moves to defeat and self-anger. I even think - purely supposition - Archer is angry that Trip didn't follow T'Pol's orders. [/quote]

I've re-watched the final part of Cogenitor yesterday and I'm still impressed by Bakula's and Trinner's performances. Archer is understandably upset when he learns about the incident, but his outburst is triggered by Trip's words "I've done exactly what you would have done". In this exact moment his anger begins to be the anger with himself: he is deeply disappointed with Trip - and Trip's attempts to defend his position only make the situation worse - but clearly blames himself for not having set a proper example. I think he knows from the very beginning that he cannot grant Cogenitor request and he is very unhappy because of it - just like he was with his decision in "Dear Doctor". I don't think T'Pol had some imput on his decision: she is trying to cheer him up (she will do the same think in "Regeneration") because she knows, he is feeling guilty (how does she know? She is supposed to be one immune to empathy!). I find of particular interest the last communication with Vessarian's captain who seems to be cheerful again and hoping for good relations in the future. Archer's answers are forced and spoken without heart. His face shows clearly how deeply he is troubled.
Now for the last scene. I've got an impression that Archer is overwhelmed with sadness and self blame. Judging by his voice he is on verge of tears. When he speaks with Trip it sounds to me like he is trying desperately not to show it, masquerading his grief with anger. If he had granted asylum to Cogenitor, she wouldn't have died and it is obvious that knowing he had taken the decision he had to made doesn't help him at all. He begins with "you", "your" action but then he switches to "we" and "I".
Could be easily the best Star Trek episode I've ever seen, screenplay and acting are both so amazing.

[/quote]Absolutely. It's nice to know other people felt the same way and you summed it up quite beautifully. Welcome to the board![/quote]
It's nice to be anwered, especially when you are new to the board and a bit shy