China's Olympic Women's Gymnastics Team- All Be Older Than 16?

[BRG]

I was under the impression that they were all about 9.

I was unaware of the 16 rule, though.

I just feel bad for these kids. They can't be having any kind of worthwhile childhood.

Indeed, as someone who only really watches gymnastics during the Olympics I also never knew about the age 16 rule, and assumed they are about 12-14. So I was suprised to hear the news today.
It is getting quite a bit of attention in the UK as our Beth Tweddle finished 4th in the asymmetric bars final, so she could be elevated to a very rare medal for British gymnastics.
But alas! I would not hold my breath waiting for justice. The IOC will keep China sweet and sweep this under the carpet, and throw us the bone of tightening checks from 2012.

I must say, I have really enjoyed watching the gymnastics, apart from the obvious China bias with the judging. Britain performed well above expectation, and even sneeked a Bronze with Louis Smith on the pommel horse! And Dragulescu performed his usual routine on the vault, nailing a perfect first, then lands on his face on the second!
But I've really enjoyed watching the two American lassies, Liukin & Johnson.
Nastia Liukin has been my favourite, she has such grace & elegance, a perfect image of a female gymnast, really beautiful to watch.
But Shawn Johnson really won me over. despite missing Gold after Gold, the girl always had a genuine smile on her face, and always looked like she loved what she was doing. I was delighted to see her win a deserved Gold on the beam.
BRG

 

[gblews]

Re: China's Olympic Women's Gymnastics Team- All Older Than 16?

Does anyone know, or have a link to an explanation of how being younger than 16 gives an unfair advantage in women's gymnastics?

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Womens gymnastics isn't focused primarily on upper body strength like the mens with parallel bars, still rings, pommel horse and the like. In womens gymnastics, the lighter and shorter you are--the higher you jump and the faster you twist. If you can twist faster, you can get in those triple twists and other incredible tricks without boobs getting in the way. Basically, that's it. Obviously an "older" gymnast can be successful. If that weren't true, the 18 year old Nastia Liukin wouldn't have won the all around with her "gigantic" 5'3" frame. However, Nastia's coach really knew how to take advantage of her height and her body lines. Not all coaches know how to do that will taller gymnasts.

Mostly, the age limit is to protect the younger girls from the intense pressure and the potential for exploitation by coaches who'll push them too hard, which is a serious problem. Bela Karolyi is a prime example; some of his former gymnasts have accused him of pushing his girls way, way too hard and having them overtrain. Dominique Moceanu accused him and his wife Marta of abuse just recently. All the male gymnasts at the olympic level are adults. They can tell their coaches to bugger off. A 13 or 14 year old girl isn't going to be on an equal footing with her coach.

 

[MIB]

^All of that is very true. I'd also like to add that having 12-year-olds compete is also just unfair to any competitors that are in the latter stages of or have finished puberty. As Dorian Thompson indicated, the younger ones don't have to compensate for an ass and a pair of boobs that might throw off their balance some- giving them the distinct advantage. So it's either set a minimum age limit or make it a sport where one is "too old" by the time they hit 16.

 

[Timewalker]

Banning the entire country would be a little overkill, but banning China from competing in gymnastics for the next two or three olympiads might sting quite appropriately. I just don't see how the IOC can ignore it if it ever wants to be taken seriously when it enforces penalties for doping offenses and other rules violations in the future. The evidence is there.

I agree that China should have to admit and make amends for their cheating. A ban would be an appropriate punishment, but only for the women. There were no underage male Chinese gymnasts.

Gotta wonder -- has the IOC learned nothing from the various scandals of recent years? It was as recently as the Salt Lake Games that they finally could no longer ignore the blatant cheating by the judges in the figure skating events. And even then, they only made redress for the pairs. Shae-Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz were cheated out of more than one ice dancing medal over the years.

 

[gblews]

Womens gymnastics isn't focused primarily on upper body strength like the mens with parallel bars, still rings, pommel horse and the like. In womens gymnastics, the lighter and shorter you are--the higher you jump and the faster you twist. If you can twist faster, you can get in those triple twists and other incredible tricks without boobs getting in the way. Basically, that's it. Obviously an "older" gymnast can be successful. If that weren't true, the 18 year old Nastia Liukin wouldn't have won the all around with her "gigantic" 5'3" frame. However, Nastia's coach really knew how to take advantage of her height and her body lines. Not all coaches know how to do that will taller gymnasts.

Now maybe it's my imagination or maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but it seemed to me that this year's American team had more of the "bigger" bodied young women than recent prior Olympic teams. Seems like the women in the past have been smaller framed bodies, but like I said, I could be wrong on this. What I'm getting at is that the American women in the past have been smaller, so what is standing in the way of them fielding smaller bodied women again? Certainly not age.

Anyway, I'de say that unless or until, there is a reliable test for age, the world's marching orders for women's gymnastics in the 2012 Games is to "get smaller" or "leaner" so that the age factor becomes a non-issue. Let those who are "cheating" go ahead and cheat. The trick is to beat them anyway.

 

[cultcross]

Banning the entire country would be a little overkill, but banning China from competing in gymnastics for the next two or three olympiads might sting quite appropriately. I just don't see how the IOC can ignore it if it ever wants to be taken seriously when it enforces penalties for doping offenses and other rules violations in the future. The evidence is there.

I agree that China should have to admit and make amends for their cheating. A ban would be an appropriate punishment, but only for the women. There were no underage male Chinese gymnasts.

Gotta wonder -- has the IOC learned nothing from the various scandals of recent years? It was as recently as the Salt Lake Games that they finally could no longer ignore the blatant cheating by the judges in the figure skating events. And even then, they only made redress for the pairs. Shae-Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz were cheated out of more than one ice dancing medal over the years.

Gotta agree with you - both on the punishment, which I think is fair, and on your point about the blindness of the IOC. They need to learn consistency on rule enforcement. Drugs rules get enforced in a draconian manner, and all the better for it, I say - but they need to apply this severity of rule enforcement to other areas. Underage gymnasts is one such area.

IMHO, if it is proven that they cheated with regard to under-16 gymnasts, and I think if the IOC investigated properly it would be, China should be banned from entering female gymnasts in 2012, and if they cheat again in 2016 they should then face a two-games ban. And so on.

 

[Ro_Laren]

Re: China's Olympic Women's Gymnastics Team- All Older Than 16?

Does anyone know, or have a link to an explanation of how being younger than 16 gives an unfair advantage in women's gymnastics?

Younger gymnasts are supposedly not as afraid (meaning they'll be daring enough to do the more difficult routines), they haven't had as many injuries, and they are more agile. Also, height plays a factor as well. I either heard on TV or on-line that when Nastia had a "growth spurt" to 5'3" her feet started to get in the way on the uneven bars. She had to retrain herself so that she wouldn't hit her feet on the ground. If she has another "growth spurt" that could hurt her career in the next couple years.

Womens gymnastics isn't focused primarily on upper body strength like the mens with parallel bars, still rings, pommel horse and the like. In womens gymnastics, the lighter and shorter you are--the higher you jump and the faster you twist. If you can twist faster, you can get in those triple twists and other incredible tricks without boobs getting in the way. Basically, that's it. Obviously an "older" gymnast can be successful. If that weren't true, the 18 year old Nastia Liukin wouldn't have won the all around with her "gigantic" 5'3" frame. However, Nastia's coach really knew how to take advantage of her height and her body lines. Not all coaches know how to do that will taller gymnasts.

Now maybe it's my imagination or maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but it seemed to me that this year's American team had more of the "bigger" bodied young women than recent prior Olympic teams. Seems like the women in the past have been smaller framed bodies, but like I said, I could be wrong on this. What I'm getting at is that the American women in the past have been smaller, so what is standing in the way of them fielding smaller bodied women again? Certainly not age.

Keep in mind that the age limit was only set in place around 1997. For example, Dominique Moceanu was 13 when she was on the American gold medal winning team in 1996. And even though she was not an American and it was in the 70's, Nadia Comaneci was 14 when she won the All-Around Gold in Montreal. The point is, who knows if there are youner gymnasts in the U.S. (smaller bodied women) that could have helped us win the gold this year??? I don't really follow gymnastics outside of the Olympics, but I know that we have a Junior National Team (all of the women on our Olympic team were from the Senior National Team). I wonder if any of the girls on the Junior National Team could have helped us win the gold. Being only 14, Nastia Liukin was too young to compete in the 2004 games. However, had she been old enough Marta Karolyi said she would have named her to the team. Who knows, she could have helped us win the gold that year- she was certainly good enough. She was the Junior National Champion in '03 and '04 and then the Senior National Champion in '05 and '06. Certainly she deserved a spot on the '04 team.

Also as I mentioned above, the older you are the easier it can be to get injured and the more likely it is that you have been injured in the past. Look at how injured our team was- Samantha Peszek and Chellsie Memmel were hurt. Sam couldn't even compete during the team final and Chellsie was only able to do the uneven bars (which we were later to learn she did with a broken ankle). Are whole team was basically carried by three competitors- Liukin, Johnson, and Sacramone.

I agree with the Karolyi's- throw out the age limit and give us all an even playing field! As far as punishment for China's crime I would be more interested in seeing the scores of all of the underaged gymnasts in the 2008 Olympics being eliminated rather than them just being banned in the next World Championship or Olympics.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Yes, but a lot of people feel that our girls get hurt because Marta and Bela push and overtrain too hard. The mens team is chosen during olympic trials, but the womens selection process (and it's only the US team that does this) makes them go through trials (naming only 2 team members) and then everyone has to go through another grueling "selection camp" two weeks before the games. It's too much in a period of a month's time. None of the other countries do it, and the US men don't do it. Had the team been named in its entirety during trials, Chelsie and Sam would have been named then, along with a fifth and sixth member of the team, which would have been Alicia and probably Shayla Worley. That's the purpose of naming three alternates at that time in case anyone gets hurt in the interim. If Alicia hadn't fallen off the beam and fallen on floor, which I attributed to nerves more than anything else, the US would have won anyway. That's what's such a shame IMO. China and its thumbelinas would have come to nothing. I'm sure that thought occured to Alicia. Having a team full of healthy post pubescent girls win gold would have done the sport a world of good.

I'd hate to see the sport go back to nothing but prepubescent girls. China getting away with it was exactly what didn't need to happen. Thank heavens Nastia won the all around. Someone like her father, Valeri, or Shawn Johnson's coach, or maybe Mary Beth Tracy, would make excellent national coaches. Marta and Bela are as guilty as anyone of pushing very young girls too hard and bullying them.

The Chinese gymnasts are going to be as old as their government says they are. Raise the age limit to 18 and see if they dare trot out a 4'5," 68 pound competitor. Somebody would have to intervene and do something.

 

[Ro_Laren]

Yes, but a lot of people feel that our girls get hurt because Marta and Bela push and overtrain too hard. The mens team is chosen during olympic trials, but the womens selection process (and it's only the US team that does this) makes them go through trials (naming only 2 team members) and then everyone has to go through another grueling "selection camp" two weeks before the games. It's too much in a period of a month's time. None of the other countries do it, and the US men don't do it. Had the team been named in its entirety during trials, Chelsie and Sam would have been named then, along with a fifth and sixth member of the team, which would have been Alicia and probably Shayla Worley. That's the purpose of naming three alternates at that time in case anyone gets hurt in the interim. If Alicia hadn't fallen off the beam and fallen on floor, which I attributed to nerves more than anything else, the US would have won anyway. That's what's such a shame IMO. China and its thumbelinas would have come to nothing. I'm sure that thought occured to Alicia. Having a team full of healthy post pubescent girls win gold would have done the sport a world of good.

I'd hate to see the sport go back to nothing but prepubescent girls. China getting away with it was exactly what didn't need to happen. Thank heavens Nastia won the all around. Someone like her father, Valeri, or Shawn Johnson's coach, or maybe Mary Beth Tracy, would make excellent national coaches. Marta and Bela are as guilty as anyone of pushing very young girls too hard and bullying them.

The Chinese gymnasts are going to be as old as their government says they are. Raise the age limit to 18 and see if they dare trot out a 4'5," 68 pound competitor. Somebody would have to intervene and do something.

I had heard that Bela and Marta were hard on the girls. I think I read something today about Dominique Moceanu making that claim. Why did they only name 2 girls at the time of the Olympic trials and then make them all go through a selection camp? Was that planned ahead of time or did they really not know who to choose? And why didn't we use one of the alternates when Sam and Chellsie got hurt? Was it because it was too difficult to get them to Beijing from Japan on such a short notice? It isn't a long flight, but still flights can wear a body down. And can't Alicia's fall on the beam be attributed (at least partially) to the fact that they made her wait so long on the floor before she was allowed to start? It's like standing in front of a class waiting to give a presentation when the teacher is making you wait. The longer you wait the more nervous you get (or at least that has always been my experience).

If the age limit was raised to 18 then people would still try to cheat. The whole point is there is no way for someone's age to be proved 100%. The Doctors of the 24th Century can do that, but not the 21st!

 

[Morpheus 02]

Quick question -- are the female gymnasts washed up by the time they hit 16?

Let's say the Chinese were younger than 16...the rest of the world's 16 year olds can't beat them?

 

[Timewalker]

The way I see it is thus: A rule is a rule. The rules for women's gymnastics say the competitors have to be at least 16 years old. At least some of the Chinese girls were nowhere near 16. Therefore, their team cheated. They should be disqualified, stripped of their medals, and have sanctions against competing in London.

I'm not saying this because of sour grapes. I'm Canadian, and I don't care who came in second, third, or whatever. I don't even care if they make a new rule that says the competitors have to be at least 100 years old. If they did that and some 95-year-old competed, that would still be cheating.

It's not about who can beat whom. It's about rule-breaking. China did that blatantly, and made a mockery of the oaths that were taken during the Opening Ceremonies... you know, the ones where the athletes promise to compete in a sportsmanlike way and the judges promise to be impartial and everybody promises to follow the rules.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

are the female gymnasts washed up by the time they hit 16?

Not at all. Nastia Liukin wouldn't have won the all around if that were so. She's 18. The all around winner in '96 was 19 years old. However, the gymnasts tend to hit puberty at 16/17 and some of them simply can't handle the 3 to 4 inch growth spurt, the resulting weight gain and center of balance "shift" with breasts and wider hips. With good coaches, like Valeri Liukin, the gymnast can adjust. Shannon Miller was 4'7" during the '92 olympics and 5'2" during the '96 olympics, where she managed to take home the individual gold for the balance beam final. She gained 20 pounds in the four years between, but she didn't have Bela Karolyi for a coach. Her coach completely redesigned her routines for her longer body. Dominique's coach was Bela, and she completely washed out when she had her growth spurt after the '96 olympics when she was so tiny.

The age limit really is about protecting the younger girls from the exploitative coaches like Karolyi, the Chinese, and other bad coaches you'll find out there. It's nudging the sport away from the prepubescent standard. It's all about a healthier image, trying to fight eating disorders and the like. It's a good rule for this sport. I disagree with Karolyi and others who say it ought to be abandoned. The average age and weight of the female gymnasts went up after it was changed. If it's changed back, it'll go right back down. Heaven only knows what China might pull to keep their girls small. Hopefully they aren't that destructive with their girls. Cheating by falsifying ages seems the more benevolent option for them.

 

[Ro_Laren]

There is an article in the New York Times today entitled: "China Cites Paperwork Error in Age of Gymnast." The article basically says that the Government web-sites listed the wrong birthdate because He Kexin switched gyms and her birthdate got registered incorrectly at the time (thus making her look younger than she really is).

 

[The Nth Doctor]

What complete and utter bullshit.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Yeah, they didn't catch it...for three years (2005, 2006, 2007 all list 1994 as He's birth year). They just happened to take all those pages down and made them inaccessible right before the olympics when a journalist started asking questions. Pure coincidence. They got it wrong on the 2006 official Chinese gymnastics roster as well. The national news agency, Xinhua, also got it wrong last November. It's just amazing how none of the official Chinese registries could get that poor girl's birthdate right until the year of the olympics.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You know, for all the preperation the Chinese did for the Olympics, you figure they could have started to prepare faking He's age earlier. That's just incompetence right there.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

What happened, most likely, is that He didn't show real promise until last year during the city games they held during last summer. The year before the olympics is when you seriously start looking at who to put on your team and on which apparatus. I think the Chinese program is so arrogant that they figured no one would dare question the girls' ages, and certainly not articles in high profile newspapers like the New York Times and in London as well (He Kexin knocked Great Britain's Beth Tweddle out of the medals on the uneven bar event finals. If He were ineligible, Tweddle would have received a bronze). I'm sure they didn't expect a high profile hacker to be able to use a Chinese language search engine to pull up inaccessible pages from the Chinese Ministry of Sport, but....

 

[Ro_Laren]

FYI, Shawn Johnson was on Late Show with David Letterman last night and was asked about the Chinese women's team. David asked Shawn if the American team ever talked to eachother about how young the Chinese team was and Shawn said yes. She said that it was a distraction. You can watch the clip on the Late Show with David Letterman's web-site.

And, I believe Nastia Liukin is going to be on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno tonight. I am sure he will also ask her about this scandal.

And here is an article re: some more evidence from the security expert, Mike Walker, about underage Chinese gymnasts.

 

[Brolan]

Knowing the IOC the real reason they aren't investigating the Chinese is they paid off the IOC officials with huge bribes.

Can you say: "money talks" ? I knew you could....