Captain Mommy?

[TiberiusK]

When I think of Kirk or Picard, they don't act overtly paternal or fatherly to the crew, although having authority made them somewhat like father-figures, but not in a familial sense. But, with Janeway, it seems like she could be very maternal, like "I have to get my boys home!" Because she was a woman, they made her motherly, whereas they never made the male captains fatherly... well Archer was kind of "Dadlike" in the sense of being a fallible doofus.

Anyone get what I'm trying to say? Am I totally off-base?

 

[Akiraprise]

You're right on base. Voyager did become a lot like a family as the show went on. Heck, this would explain Janeway's somewhat irrational behavior. Parents sometimes don't make a lot of sense from one day to the next.

In "Year of Hell" Janeway even said Voyager was much more then just a ship now, it was their home.

 

[Brennyren]

Are you asking, why was she presented as a mother figure when her male counterparts weren't presented as father figures? Because I've wondered that myself. It was as if the writers only had one model for female authority, and that's mothers.

Presenting the captain as a mother-figure is problematical in some ways. If she's the mother, then by implication the rest of the crew are children and may be dismissed as such. That would be consistent with the way Janeway handles disagreements with her officers -- more than once, with summary dismissal. Does a captain have to yield to her subordinate's opinion when it differs from her own? Of course not. But she might grant that opinion a hearing instead of feeling threatened by the fact that it differs from her own. The former is a desired approach between adult professionals, the latter definitely the way a mother might react to an impudent child.

That said, I understand that in real-life service, the CO often is thought of as a parent-figure by his/her crew. Which would make the question not, why is Janeway a mother figure, but, why aren't the male captains father figures?

Brennyren

 

[Lee]

Another consideration is the fact that, unlike other Trek shows, Voyager was completely isolated form the rest of the human race. So, to me it kind of makes sense that the crew would tend to form more family-like bonds with each other. And so it seems reasonable that the captain, regardless of gender, would take on more of a parent-type role, since everyone's real parents are so far away.

 

[Searider Falcon]

^ I agree.

If Voyager had been set in the AQ, with headquarters only a few light years away and some of the crew being reassigned on a regular basis, Janeway probably would've kept her distance. She says as my herself in The Cloud (I think...it's the one where she goes and plays pool on the holodeck with the senior staff) that she recognizes that she's not going to be able to remain aloof like she normally would if she wants to succeed in leading her crew on the long journey home.

 

[kimc]

The funny thing is I also thought Chakotay took on a paternal role with the crew - more so than Tuvok imo. Of course, Chakotay wasn't the captain so maybe the writers thought it was safe to go that route with him.

 

[AuntKate]

What is it about Janeway that makes her seem maternal? And be specific here. When and in which episode?

I've worked for men and for several women, and I can't say that I noticed all that much difference. None of the women seemed seemed maternal in the way they supervised me. However, they did seem more aware of the non-work stresses that affected my job performance, and they were more open to listening to those problems and adapting to my needs. Is that maternal? I think it's just being flexible.

Voyager was in a unique situation, and the commanders had all phases of the crews' lives to worry about, unlike most of their counterparts in the AQ. It would be natural for them to look at the crew as much more than just crew and see them as complete people, with a variety of physical, spiritual, and emotional needs that they had to be concerned about to keep them functioning well. To ignore those needs would be to invite disaster, IMHO.

Truthfully, I don't have much patience for people who dismiss Janeway as "maternal." I think she was a pretty good captain for the situation Voyager faced. I also think most male captains would have behaved as she did and would not have been judged in a negative way or have been dismissed as paternal. I can't help but wonder if some of these Janeway bashers have a few issues with their own mothers! But I won't go there.

 

[TiberiusK]

AuntKate said:
What is it about Janeway that makes her seem maternal? And be specific here. When and in which episode?

I've worked for men and for several women, and I can't say that I noticed all that much difference. None of the women seemed seemed maternal in the way they supervised me. However, they did seem more aware of the non-work stresses that affected my job performance, and they were more open to listening to those problems and adapting to my needs. Is that maternal? I think it's just being flexible.

Voyager was in a unique situation, and the commanders had all phases of the crews' lives to worry about, unlike most of their counterparts in the AQ. It would be natural for them to look at the crew as much more than just crew and see them as complete people, with a variety of physical, spiritual, and emotional needs that they had to be concerned about to keep them functioning well. To ignore those needs would be to invite disaster, IMHO.

Truthfully, I don't have much patience for people who dismiss Janeway as "maternal." I think she was a pretty good captain for the situation Voyager faced. I also think most male captains would have behaved as she did and would not have been judged in a negative way or have been dismissed as paternal. I can't help but wonder if some of these Janeway bashers have a few issues with their own mothers! But I won't go there.

I wasn't trying to bash Janeway in any way. I'm trying to reflect on the double-standard in the representation of men v. women in film and TV. If a man is totally commanding and authoritarian, he is considered a leader, while a strong woman, if not maternal, is portrayed as a bitch.

In retrospect, it just seems like 1965's Number One was a stronger and more confident female than 1994's Janeway.

But the points about Voyager's unique situation are well-taken.

 

[AuntKate]

^^Didn't mean to accuse you of that, it's just that the Mommy Captain complaint has been so pervasive over the years.

 

[Malcom]

Recently, I went to a reunion of the submarine which my father was captain back in the early 1960s.

So many of the guys told me that my dad was like a father to them. That he taught them important things that still serve them well in life.

Similarly, a friend of mine who had been a wing commander in Vietnam [A7s] told me that you were like a parent to the younger aviators who were not as experienced.

So, Janeway's parental style always made sense to me. Still does.

 

[DrTaylor]

It doesn't make the "female captain" seem like a great idea, does it?

 

[Brennyren]

AuntKate said:
it's just that the Mommy Captain complaint has been so pervasive over the years.

Well, they did court it to a certain degree. In "The Thaw," I think it was, we saw that Harry Kim specifically envisioned Janeway as a mother-figure -- admittedly, probably not too surprising in view of his age. Her relationships with Torres, Kes (who again, was very young), and later, Seven, were decidedly maternal. And in one of the late Season-Seven episodes -- can someone help me out here? -- Janeway tells someone (Chakotay, I think), that she already has children, and she's pretty clearly referring to the crew. So people aren't making this up out of whole cloth.

Brennyren

 

[TiberiusK]

Brennyren said:

AuntKate said:
it's just that the Mommy Captain complaint has been so pervasive over the years.

Well, they did court it to a certain degree. In "The Thaw," I think it was, we saw that Harry Kim specifically envisioned Janeway as a mother-figure -- admittedly, probably not too surprising in view of his age. Her relationships with Torres, Kes (who again, was very young), and later, Seven, were decidedly maternal. And in one of the late Season-Seven episodes -- can someone help me out here? -- Janeway tells someone (Chakotay, I think), that she already has children, and she's pretty clearly referring to the crew. So people aren't making this up out of whole cloth.

Brennyren

The example that comes to mind for me... I can't remember the episode or the plot, but Janeway had to discipline Paris and Kim. Suddenly, the whole mood of the command structure changed when Janeway suddenly acted like a captain. Things were suddenly formal again, so they said, "Yes sir!"

It's like the boys needed a spanking, so Janeway had to wear the pants for a few minutes so that she could use the belt.

It was a strange scene.

 

[kimc]

DrTaylor said:
It doesn't make the "female captain" seem like a great idea, does it?

Okay, I'll take the bait.

How so?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I though Kirk was quite paternal to Charlie Evans ("Charlie X") and Picard to Wesley, albeit begrudgingly, and esp. to Data. Sisko was paternal to Nog whenever his own Dad and Uncle failed him.

 

[Malcom]

Therin of Andor said:
I though Kirk was quite paternal to Charlie Evans ("Charlie X") and Picard to Wesley, albeit begrudgingly, and esp. to Data. Sisko was paternal to Nog whenever his own Dad and Uncle failed him.

I agree, and it's okay.

 

[Brennyren]

Therin of Andor said:
I though Kirk was quite paternal to Charlie Evans ("Charlie X") and Picard to Wesley, albeit begrudgingly, and esp. to Data. Sisko was paternal to Nog whenever his own Dad and Uncle failed him.

But that's not really the same thing Janeway is accused of. Charlie was a child, and a spoiled one. Wesley was a child when Picard met him (and the son of a friend), and Data had had very few years of life experience, which would make him a child of sorts. Nog was a child when Sisko met him, as well as being a friend of Sisko's son.

Being paternal (or maternal) to children isn't uncommon, and is perfectly natural for many, if not most, adults. Being maternal (or paternal) to adult subordinates is less common, and represents more of a personal leadership style.

Actually, if I had to shoose who was the most paternal of the other captains, I'd probably pick Sisko. I know Picard is the oldest of the four male captains, but Sisko seems more approachable.

Brennyren

 

[Kitty Worrier]

IIRC, by the time we saw Data, he'd been in starfleet for 26 years. Add the academy time, that's not what I'd call "very few years of life experience." hell, he's older than most of the VOY crew when they started out.

 

[Malcom]

TiberiusK said:

Brennyren said:

AuntKate said:
it's just that the Mommy Captain complaint has been so pervasive over the years.

The example that comes to mind for me... I can't remember the episode or the plot, but Janeway had to discipline Paris and Kim. Suddenly, the whole mood of the command structure changed when Janeway suddenly acted like a captain. Things were suddenly formal again, so they said, "Yes sir!"

It's like the boys needed a spanking, so Janeway had to wear the pants for a few minutes so that she could use the belt.

It was a strange scene.

I LOVED the scene where she's giving them the going over for getting in a fight. A great scene.

 

[AuntKate]

Malcom said:

TiberiusK said:

Brennyren said:

AuntKate said:
it's just that the Mommy Captain complaint has been so pervasive over the years.

The example that comes to mind for me... I can't remember the episode or the plot, but Janeway had to discipline Paris and Kim. Suddenly, the whole mood of the command structure changed when Janeway suddenly acted like a captain. Things were suddenly formal again, so they said, "Yes sir!"

It's like the boys needed a spanking, so Janeway had to wear the pants for a few minutes so that she could use the belt.

It was a strange scene.

I LOVED the scene where she's giving them the going over for getting in a fight. A great scene.

The best part was at the end when she said, "Did you win?"
PARIS: Oh, yes, Ma'am!
KIM: We kicked their rackets.
JANEWAY: Good. Dismissed.