Spoilers Captain America: Brave New World grade and discussion thread

[Anwar]

Spoiler: What it does say...

The line "I'm not Steve Rogers" was actually a big statement after Ross calling Sam son--but it was removed. Sam's speech about having to the be the best and not make any mistakes was an important scene that was undermined by Bucky and Sam making a joke about being "dramatic". Those were the two most important political scenes in the movie and all it really needed and they still fucked it up.

And if they'd done that we'd get the usual suspects saying "Oh give me a break, that's such an exaggeration!"

The movie could have made more of a statement about the governments fighting for the rare mineral on Celestial Island, but that should have been Vibranium, not Adamantium, because we've already established in Wakanda Forever that that is a political issue in the Marvel world right now.

If it was Vibranium then the Wakandans or Talokan would be all over it, making it a new substance alters the balance of global power and sets the stage for future conflicts and expands the world.

This is why I have an issue with Feige. It is his job to make sure all these pieces fit together and he's totally messed that up, first with Secret Invasion and now this.

Secret Invasion set up how Ross became President to start with.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The movie didn't have to make a "real world" political statement to be good. In terms of a black Captain America, it didn't need to say a lot about that.

The Winter Soldier had one of the most valid political statements in any superhero film to date: to those Americans who actually paid attention to / learned from recorded and living history, the film was directly targeting the decades-long abuses of the intelligence / surveillance state's hostile relationship with the laughably "free" people of America, and any other land. Hydra has and always will be a statement about Operation Paperclip's importation of Nazi scientists, et al., into America (and their subsequent influence on the American political body going forward), and the plot's other foundations linked that to the abuses of the CIA and the Department of Homeland Security. The political message was clear, which is why Captain America - The Winter Soldier (with The Falcon and the Winter Soldier) remains the best of the MCU and its most daring in the sociopolitical realm. The rest of this franchise....obviously not.

Spoiler: What it does say...

The line "I'm not Steve Rogers" was actually a big statement after Ross calling Sam son--but it was removed. Sam's speech about having to the be the best and not make any mistakes was an important scene that was undermined by Bucky and Sam making a joke about being "dramatic". Those were the two most important political scenes in the movie and all it really needed and they still fucked it up.

Spoiler

More on that at another time.

In terms of some kind of commentary about the President or current political climate, it doesn't really make any sense to do that because it would just date the movie.

Agreed; a president is a transient figure, and as anyone with eyes open knows, his polices can vanish within days or weeks after his successor taking over, which is why political MCU at its best were Captain America - The Winter Soldier & The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, as their plots and underlying themes are both historic, and fluid, meaning they continue beyond the topical barbs a studio aims at the politician of the moment.

This is why I have an issue with Feige. It is his job to make sure all these pieces fit together and he's totally messed that up, first with Secret Invasion and now this.

Agreed.

 

[Anwar]

I don't think folks who say "Secret Invasion should have been a whole Phase!" and really comprehending how bad that would've gone. For all the talk about "Political statements", you think a long story where alien refugees have been infiltrating Human Societies and subverting them for a takeover would've NOT been seen as a big political statement about "Evil Foreigners"?

 

[theenglish]

Of all the possible reasons to be upset with it, this is quite possibly the weirdest.

Replacing Adamantium with Vibranium would not change a single thing about the film. And the film as is is already a continuation of the political throughline from WF, because half of what makes Adamantium so valuable and such a dangerous powderkeg is that *everyone knows where it is* and it can't be kept hidden by Wakanda and Atlantis.

It is not a reason I think it was a bad film. It is just an example of this half-hazardness that has emerged in the MCU planning. As long as the films were enjoyable it was an annoyance that I wasn't bothered by. Now, we've had two really awful products in the last couple of years (and a few others that people complain about) and these relatively minor annoyances are starting to gnaw at me.

 

[theenglish]

Spoiler

More on that at another time.

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on that. Although I don't always fully agree with them, you always have something to say that makes me pause and reflect.

 

[DarKush]

I've seen the movie three times, and I think it does sort of take on the political climate, circa that of the prior presidential administration. The Red Hulk could be a stand-in for January 6, however how President Ross's subsequent actions played more like mainstream/establishment liberal wish fulfillment. I thought the newscaster saying that we were getting back to "normalcy" as the White House was being rebuilt was important because the same language was used in the 2020 race, and restoring normalcy was the promise of the last administration. The movie isn't beating you over the head with it, but I do think it's there.

I imagine that if the film had come out when it was supposed to, the reaction to it might be different than it is now. The timing is hurting its box office, in part because some on the right view it with hostility whereas others on the left feels that its milquetoast approach to politics is inadequate, at best, to the moment. Disney attempted to make a political thriller that had very little real-world relatable politics in it, and it didn't find a broad enough topic like Winter Soldier did that got mass buy-in, at the time. Seeing more about what adamantium could do might have helped sell how valuable or dangerous it is.

As for the internal fictional politics in the movie itself, for a film is a supposed political thriller, I felt it was a bit too light on its politics. I'm not saying it should've been House of Cards, but I would've been fine if it was on the level of 24 or Homeland.

 

[theenglish]

I think the film would have held together much better without Sidewinder, keeping Sam's conflict about his role as Captain America more front and centre, a greater focus on the international politics around Celestial Island, and an ending where Ross didn't go "full Hulk".

 

[Anwar]

I think the film would have held together much better without Sidewinder, keeping Sam's conflict about his role as Captain America more front and centre, a greater focus on the international politics around Celestial Island, and an ending where Ross didn't go "full Hulk".

We already got Sam's conflict in the FATWS show, they can't just keep rehashing that.

Steve himself barely changed at all in his movies, he was one of the least developed of the MCU Leads

 

[DarKush]

I'm torn over whether the story should've been more about the hunt for the stolen adamantium, and really play up Wilson vs. Serpent Society, with either President Ross in the wings, or that election is going on, and they tease Ross vs. Wilson for the sequel, as well as the Leader pulling strings. Maybe that way they could focus more on back-to-basics, hard-hitting, "realistic" action, which might have also been cheaper to make as well as perhaps lower expectations for blockbuster success. The downside I see there though is that I imagine there would be complaints about why it wasn't a Disney Plus series instead.

 

[Noname Given]

We already got Sam's conflict in the FATWS show, they can't just keep rehashing that.

Steve himself barely changed at all in his movies, he was one of the least developed of the MCU Leads

I disagree. Steve finding out that Hydra had infiltrated SHIELD and had been manipulating the World for 70 years was a character defining moment.

Before that he was the 'Good Soldier' always obeying orders and while nursing some doubts about how the U.S government did things BOTH during his service in WWII and then after he was defrosted, continuing the same 'fight' in SHIELD - after the events in CA: Winter Soldier he was now galvanized that Governments were too unreliable, and only worked in their self interest of maintaining power - and if he really wanted to fight for 'the people' he had to do it from outside the Government. <-- Which lead to his stance and the events in CA: Civil War.

His character experienced a paradigm shift in his views on the 'good' of world governments over the course of those films and IMO, it was pretty significant character development.

 

[RPOW0614]

Muddy mess of a movie.
When the dialog and story got thin... big fight and move on.
Disappointing from beginning to end.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I disagree. Steve finding pout that Hydra had infiltrated SHIELD and had been manipulating the World for 70 years was a character defining moment.

Before that he was the 'Good Soldier' always obeying orders and while nursing some doubts about how the U.S government did things BOTH during his service in WWII and then after he was defrosted, continuing the same 'fight' in SHIELD - after the events in CA: Winter Soldier he was now galvanized that Governments were too unreliable, and only worked in their self interest of maintaining power - and if he really wanted to fight for 'the people' he had to do it from outside the Government. <-- Which lead to his stance and the events in CA: Civil War.

His character experienced a paradigm shift in his views on the 'good' of world governments over the course of those films and IMO, it was pretty significant character development.

Well put. Steve Rogers had the strongest, most relatable development of any MCU character of that first generation, certainly more than Stark and Thor.

 

[Anwar]

I disagree. Steve finding pout that Hydra had infiltrated SHIELD and had been manipulating the World for 70 years was a character defining moment.

All it really did was help him find a proper target to focus on in the modern era, IMO.

Before that he was the 'Good Soldier' always obeying orders and while nursing some doubts about how the U.S government did things BOTH during his service in WWII and then after he was defrosted

He was doing maverick things right from the start though, like going to rescue the soldiers that the Army had written off from that Hydra base. And again in Avengers 1 when he was wholly onboard defying the World Security Council.

His character experienced a paradigm shift in his views on the 'good' of world governments over the course of those films and IMO, it was pretty significant character development.

It was there from the start, the intensity of it grew but his own character didn't really change. Not until Endgame anyways

 

[Pauln6]

It was no CA: WS but it was enjoyable. So many nods to possible Cap characters and others getting some future development. They are keeping options open.

I thought the story beats were a bit too similar to Winter Soldier, albeit not as well implemented but Sam's new suit wasn't overpowered, so I didn't mind it. The choreography was fine, although I was baffled why a prison cell could be opened from the inside by pushing a button, and the military thought shooting a Hulk was a good idea.

I am not sure why Sabra was there. Sharon Carter might have at least kept the cast a bit tighter.

I liked that they teased the introduction of Demolition Man but I was disappointed that they rowed so far away from the concept of the Serpent Society. Making them more grounded was very sensible but Copperhead could have worn clothing that gave a nod to his comic version, like Batroc did, and could have used electro gauntlets like Black Widow.

I really hope we get to see the original Serpent footage. I would love to see if I would have preferred that version and I would happily watch them as antagonists in a TV series. I hope the Leader provided them with plans for some more comic accurate powers. They could easily make them more grounded with Black Mamba using hallucinogens, Puff Adder using tanks of gas, electro gauntlets for Copperhead and Asp, blades for Fer de Lance and Bushmaster, wrestling skills for Cobra and Anaconda, artificial gills for Death Adder, maybe a suit that grants a temporary burst of speed for Black Racer, and Cottonmouth's bionic jaw.

What I would really love would be an Indiana Jones style version of the Bloodstone Hunt, with the Serpents working for Zemo and/or Crossbones, or Batroc's Brigade working for Alexander Lukin.

Diamondback dragging in some low end heroes (even Falcon, D-Man, and Nomad could work if Cap is too big) to help out in the turf war could be fun.

Ultimately, the goal of the story should be the resurrection of Red Skull so Cap can rejuvenated as a new young actor vs his nemesis after Secret Wars.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Well this movie is about 100 million from breaking even. It might make it still.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

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Pretty spot on.

Hulk definitely definitely should've been involved...

 

[Starkers]

Yeah because having one character being played by a new actor could only be enhanced by having him interact with another character being played by a new actor *

Anyhoo, I finally got to see this last night and, I dunno, maybe I went in with low expectations or something but I liked it and had a lot of fun with it.

Bit messy in places and the aerial battle was a bit ridiculous (I can suspend my disbelief for Harrison Ford turning into a Hulk but not Sam and Falcon being able to engage in dogfights it seems) but I enjoyed it.

Is it top tier Marvel, not really, is it much better than some of the more recent MCU films? I would say yes. I gave it a B+

*It really should have been Betty who showed up and talked Ross down though.

 

[ichab]

Finally got around to seeing this and ......I loved it. Sam Wilson fills Steve Rogers shoes very well and IMO is more heroic because he doesn't have the advantage of the super soldier serum. With the gadgets he's more like Batman but without the scowling and brooding. As someone who has been waiting FOREVER for an Incredible Hulk sequal, I loved the surprise of Sterns/Leader being the main villain. There were moments I could tell that some cuts had been made, but it wasn't so bad that I was taken out of the movie IMO, this was another solid outing in the Captain America series which makes it four for four and the most consistently good of any Super Hero series.

Hopefully this is a lesson to Marvel that you don't need a huge budget with bloated effects to make an entertaining movie.