Bigger Douchebag: Captain Jellico or Commander Riker?

[Turd Ferguson]

I plopped my TNG disc of the Captain's Fan Collective DVDs the other night and sat through "Chain of Command." A pretty enjoyable episode. Nice to see Captain Jellico shaking up the status quo and getting the crew off their lazy asses and do shit. I like Captain Picard's scenes with Gul Madrid, I thought David Warner and Patrick Stewart were both superb.

But... now, for the meat of the post. I remembered, watching this episode when I was younger, thinking that Captain Jellico was a douchebag for basically coming in and shaking things up. Four shift rotation. Making Troi wear a uniform. Relieving Riker of his post. Getting rid of poor Livingston.

But, rewatching it now, older, I have to wonder, who was the bigger douchebag? Sure, Jellico looks like a douche compared to Picard because he has his own way of doing things which, on screen at least, really chaps the asses of everybody on the Enterprise-D. But, Commander Riker didn't really make it any easier on himself, either.

For starters, as soon as Jellico comes on board, he's practically rolling his eyes at Jellico and giving him the stink eye in every scene, after every conversation, after every order. Sure, Jellico may be a hardass, but Riker has no idea of the guy's motivations, what possible scenerio(s) Jellico might be preparing for, and he doesn't even give him a chance. Right after Jellico chews Riker's ass for not going ahead with the four shift rotation order, Riker looks at Picard hoping for support (which I'm glad Picard didn't even bother looking back at him). WTF? You're a command officer. Make some hard decisions, and get that crew on a four shift rotation, as per your CO's order, jackass! I practically felt relieved when Riker got relieved just so he didn't have to huff and puff after every scene with Jellico anymore.

So, what do you think? Which is the bigger douchebag of the two? Jellico or Riker? The choice is yours.

 

[number6]

They were both major douchebags in that particular episode.

 

[sbk1234]

Riker, obviously.
We've discussed this on the boards many times. Two camps will undoubtedly crop up: Pro-Jellico, or Pro-Riker. The fact is, Riker behaved like a spoiled brat. None of Jellico's orders were immoral, or unreasonable. If so, Riker would have been within his rights to relieve him of command. Given the opportunity, Jellico demonstrated that he had the ability to work with his officers and even lighten up a bit when the situation allowed for it, such as the scene between him and Geordi in the shuttle.
When push came to shove, Jellico still swallowed pride and asked Riker for help because he was professional enough to recognize that Riker was the most skilled one for the job.
As much as I loved this episode, I think it showed the TNG officers as whining cry babies.
Too bad we never saw Jellico again.

 

[David cgc]

sbk1234 said:
None of Jellico's orders were immoral, or unreasonable.

In fact, I would go so far as to say the best time to fuck around with your crew's sleep schedule is right before an interstellar war is going to start.

Actually, that, his use of Data as a walking datebook, and his refusal to let the crew know that he was just pretending to be a war-hungry psychopath for the benefit of the Cardassians were my only problems with him.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

David cgc said:

Actually, that, his use of Data as a walking datebook, and his refusal to let the crew know that he was just pretending to be a war-hungry psychopath for the benefit of the Cardassians were my only problems with him.

At least he wasn't walking around showing the Cardassians he was a peace-loving, tree-hugging pussy that would just let the Cardies walk all over him and annex their little planet. Made the Cardies think twice.

 

[K-Star]

Jellico's a douchebag, but at least he made Data first officer.

 

[sbk1234]

For a one-time guest character who was written as a pain in the ass, he was very 3 dimensional. He was a hard ass military leader, and a devoted father, who proudly displayed his son's drawings. He even gave Riker a couple of chances to get things taken care of, such as getting the crew shifts changed. He could have come down hard on Riker the first time his orders weren't followed, but he didn't. For that matter, Riker could have been courtmartialled for arguing with the captain in a crisis situation, but all he did, really, was send Riker to his room to sulk.

 

[Trekker4747]

I dunno, Riker was being a little bitch but Jelico was being unreasonable. Take the 4-Shifts thing, Riker wanted to give the crew time to adjust to the change but Jelico wanted it done RIGHT NOW. Imagine what that'd do to the crew to suddenly, instantly, fuck with their sleep/work schedule.

Then there's the thing in Engineering where he tells Geordi he and his team are going to have to be up and working all night, again, that's an assholy thing to do that isn't taking in to consideration the wellfare and happiness of the crew.

Jelico expected the world and the whole ship to change overnight and you just can't do that after 6 years of doing it one way.

Riker was being a baby and rightfully was sent to his room to think about what he did but Jelico was being too much of a hard-ass his bit with Troi and "expecting a bit of formality on the bridge" shows that he didn't have the right mentality to command a peaceful ship of exploration with families on board and a crew on a 20-year mission.

 

[Timo]

Wouldn't it be a lot more difficult to adapt to the new shift schedule after the war had started?

Jellico gives the crew as much lead time as he possibly can: the shift change is his very first command, issued practically before the transporter has cycled down. And the crew has had years to catch some zzzs with the old schedule! There is absolutely no point in giving them a few days extra.

Jellico isn't running a ship of exploration, since there's going to be war there. However, he is being handed a ship of exploration. He has just a few days to change that, and when it calls for burning some midnight oil, so be it. There will be complaints, but again it's better to get those complaints out of the way before the war rather than during it.

Jellico's modifications to the ship sounded sensible enough, too: increased redundancy in case of inevitable combat damage, and diverting resources from sciences to combat. Something that gives the ship an extra edge in fighting, but obviously isn't routinely available (because it would dull the edge of the ship in routine ops). It's all the more useful when the Cardassians no doubt have an inkling of the standard specs of a Galaxy, and will be surprised by the new "balance" of the Jellico-configured ship.

Jellico obviously knew he wasn't there to stay. If his diplomacy worked, Picard would return. If it failed, he probably expected to die fighting relatively soon, what with apparently being tasked with those insane 1:15 engagements and all. Why should he try and adopt a command style suited for a 20-year exploration mission?

While both Jellico and Riker were annoying characters, and Riker and especially Troi sometimes bordered on unprofessional, I'd see those as natural, dramatically satisfactory traits in each, given the situation and plot premise. The personalities and their failings served the story well, even if Jellico's groveling at the end was somewhat unexpected and perhaps uncharacteristic.

However, what felt wholly extraneous to me was making an asshole out of Adm. Nechayev. What is the point of her making enemies of everybody in that first briefing? She does have an extra five minutes for being polite - the Cairo isn't going anywhere, and she can't exactly walk home, so what's the hurry?

Are we perhaps to read more into this - possibly a desire by the sneaky Admiral to antagonize the crew and the new Captain, in order to put either of them in bad light? Perhaps Nechayev wants Riker off the ship and is counting on him failing this assignment? Perhaps she hates Jellico's guts, and wants to make sure that Riker brings out the worst in him? Certainly her behavior isn't "coolly professional", her snappiness "efficient", her rubbing in of the need-to-know rule a "move conductive of good discipline and preparedness".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Opus]

Trekker4747 said:
I dunno, Riker was being a little bitch but Jelico was being unreasonable. Take the 4-Shifts thing, Riker wanted to give the crew time to adjust to the change but Jelico wanted it done RIGHT NOW. Imagine what that'd do to the crew to suddenly, instantly, fuck with their sleep/work schedule.

Yep. Welcome to the military.

Then there's the thing in Engineering where he tells Geordi he and his team are going to have to be up and working all night, again, that's an assholy thing to do that isn't taking in to consideration the wellfare and happiness of the crew.

Yep. Welcome to the military. BTW, leaders do take welfare and happiness of who they lead into consideration. They also know that a.) a mission as dire as the one faced by Jellico and the crew of the E-D is more important, and 2.) the human body and mind can take a certain amount of strain and 8-hours of sleep isn't what's always needed in hard situations.

Jelico expected the world and the whole ship to change overnight and you just can't do that after 6 years of doing it one way.

Yep. Welcome to the military. Like it or not, every commander has the right to come in and change everything previously to fit their command style. A sign of a good crew is one that can adjust the quickest to the new commander and give him or her what they need. Riker obviously didn't consider the needs of his commander to effectively lead this dangerous situation with the Cardassians when he balked at his orders. Neither did Riker consider how dangerous negotiating with the Cardassians were at this very moment and should something go wrong, millions of people could die. Riker also didn't consider that perhaps Starfleet sent Jellico to the Cradassian front because he was specifically qualified to get this mission done, which he was.

Riker was being a baby and rightfully was sent to his room to think about what he did but Jelico was being too much of a hard-ass his bit with Troi and "expecting a bit of formality on the bridge" shows that he didn't have the right mentality to command a peaceful ship of exploration with families on board and a crew on a 20-year mission.

Except this was no longer an exploration ship on a peaceful mission. The Federation was at the brink of war with the Cardassians and Starfleet sent their most powerful warship to the front to negotiate, showing their strength. At that moment, E-D was a military vessel and the crew should have gotten off their high horses and got the work done according to what their commander needed and wanted to effectively run their operation. Riker's hesitations and insubordination jeopardized the effectiveness of Jellico's command and the success of the mission. Many people could have died because Riker was "being a baby" and unable to follow simple orders. Riker is lucky he was only ordered to his room. He could have been courtmartialed. And he was lucky that he was able to say to Jellico what he did in his quarters and that Jellico, concerned only about getting the mission accomplished, took his whiney little rant like a man so he could get Riker to do the job of flying the shuttle. Mission first.

 

[sbk1234]

I was going to respond to Trekker4747's respnonce, but Timo and OphaClyde both beat me to it, and probably better than I could have phrased it.
It's called being professional.
Honestly, I didn't really see anything wrong with the rest of the crew's reaction, other than Riker. It's normal for a crew to gripe about orders behind their C.O.'s back, but they still carry out those orders. Riker was the one who blatantly disregarded those orders regarding the shift change, then challenged the captain in the briefing room about his plan.
As for Necheyev, I agree. I just want to say that I recently met the actor who played her, and she was nothing like the character- very kind and charming.

 

[votd]

It makes you wonder how the character of Riker would have fared if Jellico had been captain of the Enterprise from the get go - would he have stuck around? or would he have regretted passing on the Drake.

 

[Trekker4747]

Yep. Welcome to the military...

The thing is Starfleet isn't a military organization and never was supposed to be. The ranks and command structure may emulate it but is more ceremonial/designed to give a chain of command than it is supposed to be anything to do with an extension of the military.

Jelico expected the world to move for HIM instantly the moment he materalized on the pad which is unreasonable for a crew used to doing something a certain way for several years. Any good leader/superior/boss gives his subordinates a buffer time to adapt to changes and dosen't make big changes (like shift rotations) the moment he starts working.

The crew's behavior was childish and unprofessional (especialy Riker who, frankly, came across as an arrogant childish doofus) but Jellico was too much of a hard-ass and, in his own words, should've coddled the crew some more to get the adapted. Even Troi pointed this out to him and it is her JOB to see to the best psychological wellfare of the crew.

 

[Ezri]

Would have to say Captain Jellico, as his nick name was Jell Some called him Jell Brain when he was a drinker in college

 

[Noname Given]

Trekker4747 said:
I dunno, Riker was being a little bitch but Jelico was being unreasonable. Take the 4-Shifts thing, Riker wanted to give the crew time to adjust to the change but Jelico wanted it done RIGHT NOW. Imagine what that'd do to the crew to suddenly, instantly, fuck with their sleep/work schedule.

Military situation. This isn't your average 1701-D exploration pleasure cruise that they were usually on.

Then there's the thing in Engineering where he tells Geordi he and his team are going to have to be up and working all night, again, that's an assholy thing to do that isn't taking in to consideration the wellfare and happiness of the crew.

He did an inspection and actually found something wrong (Geordi even owned up to the fact Jelico DID find a problem). What Geordi was bitching about is that he didn't think Jelico was giving him reasonable time to fix the issue - and he had to pull triple shifts to do it.

Jelico expected the world and the whole ship to change overnight and you just can't do that after 6 years of doing it one way.

You do when you're heading into a hostile sitution faing an unknown amount of enemy forces and the ship ain't up to snuff. Again, it's NOT for the crew to question the Captain in command. The Captain is the only one who knows the full situation; and he usually disseminates info as needed.

Bottom line is that the episode did show Riker as a virtually INCOMPOTENT First Officer. The First Officer needs to serve the CaPTAIN FIRST, AND THE CREW SECOND. Riker was shown as being way too complacent and he forgot that; but given they showed him passing up Command opportunity after Command opportunity to stay as Second in command of the 1701-D; it it the character.

Riker was being a baby and rightfully was sent to his room to think about what he did but Jelico was being too much of a hard-ass his bit with Troi and "expecting a bit of formality on the bridge" shows that he didn't have the right mentality to command a peaceful ship of exploration with families on board and a crew on a 20-year mission.

I LOVED the scene where Jelico essentially told Troi to take a hike and wear a proper uniform. The way she was acting came across as 'she knew better than the Captain'; which wouldn't sit well with any true hard-lin officer.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Jellico was a loser.

Riker defeated the Borg attack on Earth. It's hard to say what, if anything, qualifed Jellico to captain the Enterprise.

 

[Anwar]

He negotiated the original cease-fire between the Cardassians and the Federation that was broken by Maxwell in "The Wounded".

But yeah, Riker did save Earth, so he's at least the same level as Jellico in accomplishments IMO.

Though I have to wonder why Nechayev didn't just give Riker command of the ENT while Jellico headed up the negotiations.

 

[Mysterion]

Riker was the douche.

Jellico was at no point unreasonable in his orders, and the regular crew (with the exception of Data) spent the whole episode acting like a bunch of spoiled pansies. Had I been Jellico, Riker would have been up for a courts-martial forthwith. Missed Jellico when he left. Wouild have been interesting if they'd had Picard off doing rehab for a couple of episodes and let us see a Jellico-Enterprise for a bit.

Haven't cared too much, though, for the way Peter David has written jellico in some of the "New frontier" books.

 

[CoveTom]

Trekker4747 said:
The thing is Starfleet isn't a military organization and never was supposed to be.

Are we going to rehash that argument again? Of course Starfleet is a military organization, and it has been from the very first time we saw it. The last time I checked, true vessels of exploration and science -- a NASA space shuttle for example -- don't have weapons and aren't charged with the defense of their people.

Starfleet had a scientific and exploratory purpose, of course. And it's obvious that they liked to play up that angle and downplay the military angle for PR purposes. But when you have a fleet of ships that are armed to the teeth and are the primary means of defense for their people... yup, that's a military.

 

[sbk1234]

Jelico expected the world to move for HIM instantly the moment he materalized on the pad which is unreasonable for a crew used to doing something a certain way for several years. Any good leader/superior/boss gives his subordinates a buffer time to adapt to changes and dosen't make big changes (like shift rotations) the moment he starts working.

Crews in today's military are expected to change for their captain the moment he takes command. I always thought Star Trek's crews were supposed to be the best. Doesn't the best mean they are at least as good as "primitive" 21st Century Humans? Well, if we can adapt to new leadership like that at a moment's notice - without having a hissy fit - shouldn't Starfleet's "best"?