Well to be fair, Starfleet officers know their lives are always on the line. I'm sure their families are devistated if they loose someone in the line of duty but they know that can happen when they sign up.
B'elanna Torres pairing - Tom or Harry
- Thread starter Logopolis
- Start date
Yes but, let's be honest, it's much easier for everyone (officers and their friends/relatives) in peacetime than in wartime.
Plus, you shouldn't forget that some undertake for the glamour of uniform or for the respect the family tradition more than by real conviction in the mission of Starfleet and more generally, of the Federation of Planets. But it's true, a great majority of officers made a commitment to defend a cause and by signing up, they accept the possibility of dying, even if they would prefer to die a hero (in or further to violent attacks or in trying to save people) than in a stupid way. But for their families, the loss is not less aches.
Janeway's mission (which was to locate and capture the Maquis vessel, the Val Jean, and its occupants, about fifteen rebels led by Chakotay, in the area of space known as the Badlands) was supposed to last about 1 week or 2. It didn't fall within a dangerousness operation - even if Janeway had to expect some resistance from Chakotay & his crew but, nothing deadly - and besides, even if being a Starfleet officer meant that Janeway and a great part of her crew also had combat training to be used in times of war (but maybe not as trained as Kazon, Hirogen, Borgs), Voyager was averagely armed. Some people met species during their long journey back on Earth had moreover included this fact very well and took advantage of it at the most to make damages (human and material).
Among all crew(wo)men who died during the long journey, it seems to me that only the death of Lt Joseph Carey happened in a REALLY stupid way (it was pretty poorly done, besides) and maybe, it could have been avoided if Chakotay, Tom Paris and Neelix had been less naive or more on their guard in offering a better protection to Carey, who was handicaped by a leg injury and consequently, incapable to defend himself), especially when they had in front of them, a guy who behaved like a psychopath, ready to do anything to stand out).
Kindred spirits with some teasing on the part of Torres. She would see the innocence in him that, to an extent, she longed for and would "play" with his expectations. Perhaps their play would intermittently get physical but then she'd back away the moment she saw the one thing of her vulnerability she feared - emotional dependency.
I haven't seen Voyager in a while, but who out of Tom and Torres did want kids the most? I actually also saw Torres as career driven too and not to phased about having children. This is actually part of why Torres and Harry seemed like a good pair to me.
Agreed. They embraced maturity vicariously through their commitment for one another.
Yes. It became boring. Tom was always a more interesting character when he put his stamp on his obligations and responsibilities. I fail to see why he would change because, more than ever, he has the greatest freedom he's ever had: he's away from Earth and the baggage that comes with it, he's part of a crew in an uncharted part of space, he's the ship's pilot (when he damn well should not be in my opinion), we've seen him date numerous women and he still has his boyish interests (snooker, Dr. Proton etc...).
Same with Torres. While she did admittedly have good character development, the whole appeal of her character was to witness her human half at odds with her Klingon half. Why did this struggle become less apparent by going into a relationship with a human male?
I'm going to sum this up as saying the characters became unsexy. Yes, i'm still young and I myself am not in a committed relationship nor do I have children so my opinion to a certain extent does reflect my current lifestyle. But the intrigue was gone. It's basically like the ending to Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. He's married. *shrugs* Does anyone seriously expect IJ5 to be an improvement over IJ4 if it is set after the events of that film?
Hahaha. If it can reassure you, I am still single and childless myself.
But yes, I agree with you. From the moment where they were married and later parents-to-be, B'Elena & Tom lost of the interest. And what is worst is that, at the end, I didn't care about them anymore, as a couple and as individuals. That is what producers and script writers manages to make after 7 years! Just sad.
I hope that for Discovery, the new team will be able to do better... !
Ghislaine, what sort of potential did you see for Tom and B'Elanna, outside of getting married? Many - quite possibly most - people want to get married, or to be in a relationship that's very like being married. To me, this makes these characters seem more relatable. I don't know what new ground they were supposed to break, otherwise? That pot had already been stirred and often.
They'd had so many novel and unusual sci-fi experiences, before that, I don't know what their being married would've denied an audience. Had being left in space, together, not forced B'Elanna to openly admit to Tom that she was madly in Love with him, I'm sure other pressures would've forced them together, later. For example, she might've let Tom have her, finally, with the resultant pregnancy bringing them closer, still ...
They'd had so many novel and unusual sci-fi experiences, before that, I don't know what their being married would've denied an audience. Had being left in space, together, not forced B'Elanna to openly admit to Tom that she was madly in Love with him, I'm sure other pressures would've forced them together, later. For example, she might've let Tom have her, finally, with the resultant pregnancy bringing them closer, still ...
I have to disagree about Tom and B'Elanna. I always thought they were still interesting and well developed after getting married. I don't know about other people, but one of the things I really loved about being married, and hope to have again some day, is the comfort that comes with a long term stable relationship. My ideal night is cuddling on the couch watching tv with some snacks. So I can relate to them "settling down"
I think for a "family" show a pregnancy outside of marriage in the 90s would have been hard for some people to take. I personally would not have been against it. Maybe an alternate Blood Fever where Vorik didn't interrupt them and they actually did get it on...and that resulted in a pregnancy. Of course there are about a million and a half works of fanfic about this LOL
As a Roman Catholic, I can understand others feeling that way about having kids out of wedlock. If brides didn't insist on having such lavish, big event gala weddings and wedding receptions afterwards, maybe the fights would be fewer, down the line, as the bills would prove much more manageable. Because there's no Coupon Day .... no "send in your proofs of purchase" for a rebate ... everything's got to be Top of the Line. Then, when kids do enter the picture, they're wearing hand-me-downs from The Salvation Army and going to Public School, because the wedding's still being paid off. Wanting to avoid all that by avoiding the Legal Marriage part makes a little more sense, than maybe it did, before.
Well, according to Brennan/Piler/Braga and later Braga's histories with love stories in Star Trek franchise for TV from TNG to Entreprise, anything could happen: from a successful romance which ends with a beautiful wedding and a child to a love story which ends dramatically to a classical break up to try again with someone else . Every scenarios are possible -> a lot of people hoped/expected Janeway/Chakotay, at worst, in the finale series and however, they ended with Chakotay/Seven! So...
And the sort of potential I saw for Tom and B'Elanna, outside of getting married? A deep and tender bond between 2 people who have learnt to know and understand each other, that better than anyone, including Harry and Chakotay, after to have first been friends then lovers then friends again.
For centuries, to get married and to be parents were top priorities. Now, marriage and parenthood aren't an end in itself, contrarly to get a life (to be professionally successful, to thrive a social life, to live alone or accompanied). Is this evolution regrettable? Maybe but that's how it is. C'est la vie! :-D
You know, life holds many surprises... But in admitting that Tom and B'Elena were made for each other, I would have prefered to see them together for several months then due to their different personnalities and lack of compromises between the workaloclic B'Elena and the boyish Tom (or because what's happened in Nothing Human (5x12) and later, in Lineag (7x12), where trust & fear created a deep discomfort between them), broke up and after 1 or 2 unfortunate experiences, to come back together to try again in a more mature relationship and a few time later, finally ready to take the plunge. In short, a relationship which which advances step by step ( with its advances and retreats). it would have been more realistic.
I agree. The whole point was character growth for both of them and I'm glad we saw them go through it together. I would have tuned it all out if B'Elanna had stayed angry and Tom irresponsible. I wish we could have seen more of Tom's internal struggles apart from his father, though, as we did with B'Elanna. We saw a little of it in the much-maligned Threshold but not much anywhere else.
I've always thought that they both went through a lot of growth and development. Even after they got together and then got married and even more when B'Elanna got pregnant.
I may be more traditional but I'm all for marriage. Maybe not a huge wedding. If I get married again I will definately just elope. But I firmly believe in the symbolism and comitment (and the tax breaks) that come with actually getting married.
Of course in Trek money isn't an issue if you're in the Federation
I kind of saw Tom and Torres as kind of a reprise of her parents relationship, but one she was determined to get right this time.
There is some Food for Thought, here, in the sense that Rick Berman's creative teams could've had Tom & B'Elanna be more unconventional in their relationship, to sort of demark just how different 24th century norms are from our own. But that was really more of a Roddenberry thing. I don't get the impression that Berman was into that. I mean, the more TNG went on, for example, the more 20th century it sort of became, with its ideals. I mean, hell ... watch "Family." Picard goes home to a France that Time Forgot. It's almost kind of embarrassing. I mean, it's one thing to not depend on technology, it's quite another to live like it's still the Revolutionary War days. In the Here & Now, I'm sure there are no longer any facilities, anywhere, no cabin you can rent, lets say, that's straight out of the 1920's, with all the shit from that era still useable in it and everything. And that's NOW. So ...
But, I do like seeing that the old values are still recognised and appreciated and valued ... things like a traditional marriage and all that goes along with that. It's also nice to see a relationship slowly evolve over time, but audiences have kind of lost patience with waiting for things to play out. "We KNOW these two are gonna hump, get on with it ..." kind of an attitude. I mean ... watch an old Black & White movie with, say, Carey Grant in it. There's all of this sexually charged energy created by the distance between he and his leading lady, rather than by his squeezing on her and kissing her up. And again, audiences can see that, but they get annoyed if they don't kiss, or do something ... NOW! Well ... OK, then. You know? I mean ... what can you do, when all that popcorn's at stake?
I'm coming to a new conclusion with this thread after much reading: it's not so much that I am disappointed by the fact that Harry and Torres were never a couple, but more disappointed that it wasn't briefly explored at some point. I certainly wouldn't want to see Harry and Tom having a strained friendship over the one woman, but what if somewhere in S1 or S2 Harry draws in his breath and asks Torres on a date? At first the idea amuses Torres, but she shrugs and goes with the idea. They date for an episode or two, share some kisses but Torres realises it just isn't to be and they amicably break it off.
It certainly wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Harry to ask her out given their chemistry and the fact that has a history with choosing the wrong woman. Meanwhile, there is a brief moment where Torres likes the idea of having a soft centred voice of reason. But, it goes pear shaped. It would have been a fun story but also giving us insight to characters that were, at the time, new to Star Trek.
It certainly wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Harry to ask her out given their chemistry and the fact that has a history with choosing the wrong woman. Meanwhile, there is a brief moment where Torres likes the idea of having a soft centred voice of reason. But, it goes pear shaped. It would have been a fun story but also giving us insight to characters that were, at the time, new to Star Trek.
I can live with that one, given my (and Dawson's) interpretation of that vision.
I guess I'm just glad we weren't given different pairings, however temporary. The last thing I want to see on Star Trek is shipper wars.
Harry had no business trying to kiss up on Torres, but it's very awkward watching him with the women he does get. It's like Wang has no charisma, or anything. Like when he was in that episode "Favorite Son," he's Master of all he surveys on The Planet of Women. There might've been, maybe, one other guy there, but that's it. Harry's even got a little harem going for himself and everything plays out so flat and lifeless and unconvincingly. Kim ... there's more punani than you can shake a stick at and it's all yours, for the taking. Aren't you even the slightest bit intrigued by the prospect? Because there's no sparks going on ... no flashes in the pan, here ... it's like watching someone sitting around in a Dentist's Office. He's like Prince Vallium from Space Balls. "Come bah-hah-hah-haaaaaaack!! YAWN!!!!!!!"
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