Batman and Bill - Hulu Documentary on Bill Finger

[Dick Whitman]

I still remember back in high school, so over 20 years ago, a classmate telling me his favorite comic book ARTIST is Stan Lee. When I told him Stan was a writer and has never drawn anything he seem baffled and annoyed at me. Obviously he knew nothing about comics. But even than it was frustrating and I had not yet learned all I know now about inflated Stan Lee's importance is like I know now. I remembering thinking this guy's favorite creator is just because he is famous and name appears on a lot of books. He did not even notice all the different art styles on books with Stan's name on it. He was really just a fan of Stan's fame. Sadly that continues to this day with most of the public.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

STAN LEE PRESENTS...

I respect Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, etc a lot, but I don't believe they were particularly fair to Lee. It also stands out that, on a personal level, I never found their post-Lee work to be all that great (Kirby did better then Ditko, but even his New Gods I think were done better by later writers). Two extremely talented guys, but I don't take them or people like Conway, whose opinion is no less subjective then theirs on the subject, all that seriously when it comes to Stan Lee. In the end, Lee is a person and as such probably did unfair things on occasion. He probably did intentionally take the spotlight, although part of that I think was just his personality and style making that easier. But, I'd still list him as the driving creative force on almost all the characters he's credited.

Now some characters, like the X-Men or She-Hulk (who he really just did one issue on so barely counts), really only work and stuck around because of later writers (the X-Men specifically would have died without other writers doing it better), but most of the characters Lee worked on succeeded and stuck around because of his work on them.

Anyway, this is a topic about Bob Kane, not Stan Lee. Last time I checked, stan Lee always mentioned the co-creators and never made a contract to specifically force Marvel to screw over people like Kirby or Ditko. Even if I agreed with your assessment of him, which I don't, Bob Kane would still be much, much worse then Stan Lee.

You said Kirby and Ditko weren't fair to Lee? Kirby and Ditko weren't fair to Lee? Oh boy... I'll let that slide...

I don't see how Lee is better than Kane if both took credit for other people's work. At least Kane did (co-)create Batman and was the actual artist for the early Batman comics. Unlike Lee's work, no one disputes that.

You mention that you find Kirby's post-Lee work not all that great. Fair enough. You forgot to mention how did you find Lee's post-Kirby and post-Ditko work? Oh that's right, it's non-existent. As is Lee's pre-Kirby and pre-Ditko work. Stan Lee's Stripperella was great but still...

I accept your opinion about Stan Lee, but you'll have to excuse me if I value the opinions of Kirby, Ditko, Conway, Wood, Evanier and Richardson a little more. After all they are the ones that worked with Lee, Kirby, Ditko, they are the ones that worked with Marvel in they 60's and 70's, they are the ones that have researched comic book history and they know a little bit more about what happened back then than you or I. Some have even testified their knowledge at court!

Now, by all means, let's get back to Bill Finger's amazing legacy which besides Batman, Bat-family and Rogues Gallery, includes original Green Lantern Alan Scott!

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't see how Lee is better than Kane if both took credit for other people's work. At least Kane did (co-)create Batman and was the actual artist for the early Batman comics. Unlike Lee's work, no one disputes that.

Lee's not an artist. He's never claimed credit for any of the art. He was a writer. He gave voice to the characters. He contributed to the plots. Kirby and Ditko were also involved with the plotting, perhaps even more so than Lee, but Lee's contributions can't be swept under the rug. He helped shape Marvel's style and image. The situation reminds of the Beatles. There's a strain of fandom that like to dismiss McCartney in favor of Lennon.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Lee's not an artist. He's never claimed credit for any of the art.

I never said he was an artist. I never said that he took credit for the art. It's Lee's contributions to the characters' creation and comic book plots and writing that are disputed.

Now, to get back to Bill Finger, did you know that he was also a movie screenwriter?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I never said he was an artist. I never said that he took credit for the art. It's Lee's contributions to the characters' creation and comic book plots and writing that are disputed.

He definitely contributed.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

He definitely contributed.

Definitely. If you say so. I take it you were present at Marvel's offices back then.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Definitely. If you say so. I take it you were present at Marvel's offices back then.

I've read the comics. His imprint is all over them. His "voice" is different than Kirby or Ditko on their own. He didn't just write snappy patter in letter columns, the Soapbox and MBB.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Bill Finger wrote the Clock King episodes of the 1966 Batman tv series. It was one of the few Batman things he got an official credit on while he was alive.

Most fans assume the Batman villian and the Green Arrow villian of the same name are the same character. Not true at all. Bill Finger adapted his own comic book story from the 40s. It was a Robin solo story with a villian simply called the Clock. He updated him to TV as the Clock King.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

I've read the comics. His imprint is all over them. His "voice" is different than Kirby or Ditko on their own. He didn't just write snappy patter in letter columns, the Soapbox and MBB.

That is an argument that I can accept. Again though it is a question of how big a contribution it was. Did Lee just came up with some funny quips and witty remarks like Kirby, Ditko, (Gil) Kane and all the others claim?

 

[Nerys Myk]

That is an argument that I can accept. Again though it is a question of how big a contribution it was. Did Lee just came up with some funny quips and witty remarks like Kirby, Ditko, (Gil) Kane and all the others claim?

I think most of the dialog is Lee, not just the quips. IIRC, on of the complaints Kirby and Ditko had was Lee changing the direction of their plots through his dialog.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kane's a jerk of the highest caliber. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees. Stan's Lee's a different story.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Yup. For some reason P.T. Barnum springs to mind.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yup. For some reason P.T. Barnum springs to mind.

Stan was a great salesman. He comes across as fun and approachable on the page. And from what I've heard that's how he is in person. The fans responded to that. He's the guy who asked the fans to address their letters to "Stan and Jack" rather than "Editor". He wasn't shy about mentioning Kirby or Ditko either. He was developing and selling the Marvel brand. The Bullpen as a team was part of that brand. Marvel was the little company that could. It was never the Stan Lee Show, even if he was the face and voice of Marvel.

Kane was different. He pretty much stepped away from any real participation in Batman and was happy just to cash the checks.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Finally saw this. Very informative and surprisingly touching. Gratifying to see Finger's granddaughter finally get Bill the recognition that he deserved and the closure for the family that it created.

 

[Marc]

Even now after 70 years the estates and heirs of Siegel and Shuster are still at courts with DC and WB for ownership and rights of Superman and Superboy. Read more about that here:

I thought that had been settled and the Siegal & Shuster estates got control/ownership/whatever of the character and traits that Superman had at the time of his creation but parts of the mythos that came long later (extra powers, Krypton etc) were the property of DC but I guess both sides are playing for all or nothing.