I've loved both of Nolan's Batman films, but the only older one I've seen is the 1989 original. I had the novelization of Batman Forever on tape as a kid (since I'm visually impaired), but I never actually saw the movie. I kind of want to see it now out of curiosity, but its reputation seems to be very negative. Why?
Are any of the old Batman movies worth seeing?
- Thread starter Captain Worf
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Batman Forever, though not as bad as Batman & Robin, has many of the same flaws. Joel Schumacher's Batfilms were campy, shallow, unfunny attempts at comedy merged very inconsistently with attempts at melodrama. They reduced the characters to flashy caricatures and jokes, and elevated the production design to an insane level of garishness.
Here's a page that humorously deconstructs and critiques Batman Forever in thorough detail: http://www.agonybooth.com/recaps/Batman_Forever_1995.aspx
Actually the 1989 Tim Burton film is far from the "original." The first filmic appearances of Batman were in the 1943 serial Batman with Lewis Wilson and Douglas Croft and the 1949 serial Batman and Robin with Robert Lowery and John Duncan. The first is a disturbingly racist WWII propaganda piece with Batman as a government agent battling a supposedly Japanese prince who sounds more like a Brooklyn gangster and has a name that isn't even phonetically possible in Japanese. The second is more innocuous, but about par for the course for '40s adventure serials, as Batman, Robin, and Commissioner Gordon deal with the high-tech villain The Wizard and his remote-control and disintegrator rays (which somehow become an invisibility ray when combined).
The first feature-length Batman movie was the 1966 film spinoff of the Batman sitcom with Adam West and Burt Ward. It's a different kind of Batman, but I consider it a comedy classic.
The best Batman movies are in animation, though. There are four movies (one theatrical, three direct-to-video) in the continuity of the Warner Bros. Batman: The Animated Seriesand its spinoffs, the best of which are Batman: Mask of the Phantasm and Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. The other two B:TAS films, Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero and Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman, are not as good, but they're a damn sight better than the Schumacher films. Batman has a minor but impressive presence in another Warner Bros. DVD movie (in an unrelated continuity), Justice League: The New Frontier. There's also Batman: Gotham Knight, a DVD release containing six anime shorts from different Japanese directors, which are more or less in the Nolan film continuity and take place between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight (although there are a couple of significant inconsistencies between the DVD and TDK). If you like anime, it's definitely worth checking out.
Batman and Batman Returns, the Tim Burton movies, are great
they were....relatively VERY realistic for their day and violent (given that people were comparing it to Adam West)
now....it's still really dark and macabre, but in the gothic "Tim Burton" way
really, it's not better or worse than the Nolan films and has some moments of genius, it's just like how in the comics, certain artists take a VERY realistic animation style, and some are far more "lyrical" using exaggerated artwork and shadows; it's still really dark, just a bit more lyrical than this "this is literally happening in the real world" Nolan films (albeit, he has access to top-of-the-line military technology because he's a defense contractor, but it's nothing that couldn't *theoretically* exist if one were inclined to build it)
they were....relatively VERY realistic for their day and violent (given that people were comparing it to Adam West)
now....it's still really dark and macabre, but in the gothic "Tim Burton" way
really, it's not better or worse than the Nolan films and has some moments of genius, it's just like how in the comics, certain artists take a VERY realistic animation style, and some are far more "lyrical" using exaggerated artwork and shadows; it's still really dark, just a bit more lyrical than this "this is literally happening in the real world" Nolan films (albeit, he has access to top-of-the-line military technology because he's a defense contractor, but it's nothing that couldn't *theoretically* exist if one were inclined to build it)
If anything watch Batman Returns for Michelle Pfeiffer. I think it's a great movie.
The 1989 original is the only one worth seeing. Returns dives too much in Burton's zanny mcabre, Forever is the first step into madness of Schumacher and, well, everything that's been said about B&R has been said.
The first Burton movie is terrific: my favorite Batman movie to date. I'm a sucker for that whole Universal Monsters gothic feel.
BATMAN RETURNS is a mess, story-wise, but boasts great performances and atmosphere. Definitely worth seeing, just don't expect a coherent plotline.
BATMAN FOREVER is watchable. Val Kilmer is arguably more convincing in the action sequences than Keaton ever was, and Jimmy Carrey does a great job of channeling Frank Gorshin from the old tv series. Two-Face is completely wasted, though.
BATMAN & ROBIN is an abomination. Ugly, noisy, and stupid. Avoid at all costs.
BATMAN RETURNS is a mess, story-wise, but boasts great performances and atmosphere. Definitely worth seeing, just don't expect a coherent plotline.
BATMAN FOREVER is watchable. Val Kilmer is arguably more convincing in the action sequences than Keaton ever was, and Jimmy Carrey does a great job of channeling Frank Gorshin from the old tv series. Two-Face is completely wasted, though.
BATMAN & ROBIN is an abomination. Ugly, noisy, and stupid. Avoid at all costs.
I think the first Burton movie is a simply solid movie, quite good. The set design is fantastic. I recently rewatched Batman Returns in HD and really enjoyed it but you have to watch it as a Burton twisted fairy tale version of Batman, if you can't you won't enjoy it much I'd think.
I've never found Batman Forever to be any better than the much-maligned Batman and Robin but many people seem to think it is. If you like smoke and neon you may have found your masterpiece.
I've never found Batman Forever to be any better than the much-maligned Batman and Robin but many people seem to think it is. If you like smoke and neon you may have found your masterpiece.
The only Batman films I've seen in a theater, when they were new, are Batman (1966) and Batman Returns (1992). I endorse them both.
One problem with Batman (1989) is the involvement of Prince, who contributed a few songs that the movie would have been better off without (he also recorded a whole "Batman" album). Prince's career never really recovered musically from the 1982-88 heights (not judging just by recordings; I saw live shows before and after Batman, in Sept. '88 and May '90, each the first show of a tour). He still does something halfway worthwhile every 5 years or so, and I hear the little guy is still quite the live showman at 50, but those seven or eight '80s years were the best.
One problem with Batman (1989) is the involvement of Prince, who contributed a few songs that the movie would have been better off without (he also recorded a whole "Batman" album). Prince's career never really recovered musically from the 1982-88 heights (not judging just by recordings; I saw live shows before and after Batman, in Sept. '88 and May '90, each the first show of a tour). He still does something halfway worthwhile every 5 years or so, and I hear the little guy is still quite the live showman at 50, but those seven or eight '80s years were the best.
I personally find Burton's Batman to be fantastic. I am also a fan of Batman Forever. I think that movie gets slammed way too much. I don't care much for Batman Returns and Batman & Robin is terrible, but it's worth a look because of how terrible it is.
Batman: The Movie with Adam West is a classic.
Batman: The Movie with Adam West is a classic.
See The two Tim Burton films, well worth seeing. I wish Burton and Keaton had continued making Batman films. Anyone know the story behind that? Did Burton just want to move on or something?
^ When Warner pulled the plug on Burton because Batman Returns was too dark and demented, Keaton left with him. Supposedly, with Burton and Keaton, Batman Forever would've been Robin Williams as Riddler and Rene Russo as Chase Meridian. And maybe Billy Dee Williams back as Two-Face?
I like Batman, Batman Returns and Batman Forever, to varying degrees.
I loved Batman when it came out since it was the first dark, serious Batman, but it comes across as really dated now.
My favorite is Returns, probably the most-Burton, least-Batman of the bunch (why, in a movie called Batman Returns, is Batman/Bruce Wayne in like five of the first 30 minutes?), but DeVito and Pfeiffer ruled.
Forever gets a bad rap because it's Schumacher, but that comes mostly from people who loved his earlier work but because of Batman & Robin, those prior movies of his (Flatliners, The Lost Boys, St. Elmo's Fire, Falling Down, etc.) are now retroactively panned by them.
I like Batman, Batman Returns and Batman Forever, to varying degrees.
I loved Batman when it came out since it was the first dark, serious Batman, but it comes across as really dated now.
My favorite is Returns, probably the most-Burton, least-Batman of the bunch (why, in a movie called Batman Returns, is Batman/Bruce Wayne in like five of the first 30 minutes?), but DeVito and Pfeiffer ruled.
Forever gets a bad rap because it's Schumacher, but that comes mostly from people who loved his earlier work but because of Batman & Robin, those prior movies of his (Flatliners, The Lost Boys, St. Elmo's Fire, Falling Down, etc.) are now retroactively panned by them.
That's an excellent way of putting it.
Maybe to some extent, but BF is hardly a good movie. The characterizations aren't very good and there's too much camp. Two-Face, the most fascinating and psychologically complex of all Batman villains, is totally wasted, reduced to a gimmicky caricature. Most of the action is overblown and ridiculous -- the Batmobile driving straight up a wall being perhaps the iconic example but hardly the most ludicrous. And Carrey is wrong for the Riddler, a character who's supposed to be a shrewd, dapper, intellectual antagonist, not a hyperactive nutjob. And need we even mention the fetishistic costumes and "Holey rusted metal, Batman"?
Sorry, but with the exception of the abomination that is Batman & Robin, all the Burton/Schumacher Batman films are mediocre. I would rank the three of them equally.
I don't think Schumacher is the antichrist or anything, he's just a director who puts flashiness and visual style way ahead of telling a coherent story. Making him a lot like Tim Burton, actually. Years before I saw Batman & Robin, I thought Lost Boys was dopey tripe, and St. Elmo's Fire was overblown melodrama. And the less said about 8MM, DC Cab and the Number 23, the better. About the only Schumacher films I liked are Falling Down and Phone Booth, and those are borderline.
I wonder how many people have watched the '89 Batman recently? It's full of stupid moments. And I'm not just talking about Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave, a moment so stupid that even Batman Returns made fun of it. I mean, the Joker takes down the Batwing with one bullet from a handgun??
I don't think Schumacher is the antichrist or anything, he's just a director who puts flashiness and visual style way ahead of telling a coherent story. Making him a lot like Tim Burton, actually. Years before I saw Batman & Robin, I thought Lost Boys was dopey tripe, and St. Elmo's Fire was overblown melodrama. And the less said about 8MM, DC Cab and the Number 23, the better. About the only Schumacher films I liked are Falling Down and Phone Booth, and those are borderline.
I wonder how many people have watched the '89 Batman recently? It's full of stupid moments. And I'm not just talking about Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave, a moment so stupid that even Batman Returns made fun of it. I mean, the Joker takes down the Batwing with one bullet from a handgun??
Both the Burton films are well worth checking out, even though Nicholson's Joker has now been eclipsed completely by Ledger. Forever is either a bit of fun or irritating depending on your point of view - I change my mind, often half way through watching it. Batman and Robin, besides the delights of Uma Thurman vamping it up, has nothing to recommend it at all.
The Adam West movie, on the other hand, is pure gold through and through.
The Adam West movie, on the other hand, is pure gold through and through.
Batman Returns had a great performance by Michelle Pfiefer(sp) as Catwoman. I liked Danny DeVito's/Burton's take on Penguin as well, though some considered it gross. However, it was a film with no plot.
I can't recommend the Schumaker films (Batman Forever and Batman & Robin). Far too campy, but I think BF was better than B & R. I thought Val Kilmer was a decent Batman/Bruce Wayne.
I too think the animated films of the 90's were pretty good, as was Batman: The Animated Series. If you haven't seen any of BTAS I highly recommend it. I thought Batman Beyond was a good successor series to BTAS as well. The Batman, another animated series recently concluded, got better over time.
I thought Gotham Knight sucked, except for the final story with Batman v. Deadshot. I can't recommend that one.
I can't recommend the Schumaker films (Batman Forever and Batman & Robin). Far too campy, but I think BF was better than B & R. I thought Val Kilmer was a decent Batman/Bruce Wayne.
I too think the animated films of the 90's were pretty good, as was Batman: The Animated Series. If you haven't seen any of BTAS I highly recommend it. I thought Batman Beyond was a good successor series to BTAS as well. The Batman, another animated series recently concluded, got better over time.
I thought Gotham Knight sucked, except for the final story with Batman v. Deadshot. I can't recommend that one.
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