Angel One "oops"

[Kegek]

Timo said:
I still claim the exact opposite: items are forbidden from leaving the holodeck in the same sense that water is forbidden from leaving the pool. The point of the pool is to keep the water in.

I still don't see how that's applicable. Computer programs don't just splash out of their parameters. Not to mention that, in the case of the pool, the pool is artificially trying to contain something that can and does exceed it. The holodeck is creating things that cannot, we've seen in the best case holographic things either distintegrate upon exit or can't leave at all, aside for some more ambiguous items which probably fall under the category of the real matter created in the Holodeck.

 

[Nebusj]

Kegek Kringle said:
Computer programs don't just splash out of their parameters.

I want to be the import/export agent for computer software from your timeline into mine. Here we've just about given up on computers being deterministic phenomena.

 

[Timo]

What the one time matter can't leave the holodeck is in the context of PROVING that matter can't leave the holodeck....um...yeah...we need to let that outweigh pretty much everything else.

Serious or sarcastic?

I mean, it would make perfect sense for Picard to demonstrate to Moriarty that matter cannot leave the holodeck - while leaving out the big "except". It is in Picard's interests to lie to Moriarty about that, after all. If the villain is a menace when confined to the holodeck, he'd be thrice that bad if he had a reason (no matter how false and feeble) to think that he could escape those confines.

So we get the rigged demonstration. "See? I walk through this door with this carefully tagged item in my pocket. Hear the klaxons? See the flashing lights? So now I've proven it, it's impossible for anybody to ever steal anything from this shop." Well, it's not. But it still is pretty darn difficult - yet properly demonstrating that the detector is somewhat fallible would give the shoplifter candidate (false) hope and encourage him to try anyway.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

Nebusj said:

Kegek Kringle said:
Computer programs don't just splash out of their parameters.

I want to be the import/export agent for computer software from your timeline into mine. Here we've just about given up on computers being deterministic phenomena.

 

[Green Shirt]

The snowball survived outside the holodeck due to the speed in which it was thrown.


This stupid explanation would sound really good if it was dressed up with some impressive technobabble.

Who would like to give it a try?

 

[CoveTom]

I think everyone here is ignoring the most obvious explanation for the seeming inconsistency of the book disappearing in "Ship in a Bottle" when other simple matter can exit. Obviously, that book is a complex lifeform from a species we've only barely glimpsed in Trek canon.

Seriously, though, I don't see what's so mind-boggling about all of this. It's been well-established in dialogue that the holodeck makes use of both simulated holographic material and real replicated material. Some items on the holodeck are as tangible as the food you get from the Ten Forward replicator, others are complete illusions.

The snowball, the water in Encounter at Farpoint, the drawing in "Elementary, Dear Data" -- all of those were obviously replicated matter, able to leave the holodeck. The book in "Ship in a Bottle," whether by coincidence or by design of Picard in proving his point, was obviously a holographic projection, which disappeared as it hit the edge of the holodeck.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Re: Angel One "oops

The Old Mixer said: Not to mention the brief bit of expository dialogue given the first time that we saw the holodeck, in "Encounter at Farpoint". The holodeck sometimes makes use of real, replicated matter. But the replicators can't create a lifeform. What's so complicated?

Besides the fact that it wasn't established how the Holodeck works early in the season, if I recall correctly the first scene of it in Encounter at Farpoint established that the Holodeck cannot create living matter at all - only landscapes. It wasn't until after a Holodeck "upgrade" prior to The Big Goodbye that the Holodeck could create people and other characters.

I could be wrong here.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Re: Angel One "oops

^Did I say anywhere that the holodeck could create lifeforms in "Farpoint"? I will point out, however, that it was able to create a holographic sparring partner for Tasha in "Code of Honor", though its reactions were limited and it didn't move in a realistic fashion.

The exposition about the holodeck using replicated matter in "Farpoint" is strongly implied in the dialogue:

RIKER: I didn't believe these could be so real.

DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an energy beam, then back to the original pattern again...

RIKER: Yes, of course. And all these have much simpler patterns.

Data then proceeds to demonstrate by throwing a rock against the wall of the holodeck. Now if that were a purely holographic rock, I would expect it to interact as such with the holographic backdrop, thus seeming to fly normally and fall to the ground. That the rock disrupts the simulation suggests that the rock is real, replicated matter (whereas the backdrop on the wall is not). I'd wager that the rock could have been thrown out of the holodeck.

 

[Timo]

Besides the fact that it wasn't established how the Holodeck works early in the season, if I recall correctly the first scene of it in Encounter at Farpoint established that the Holodeck cannot create living matter at all - only landscapes. It wasn't until after a Holodeck "upgrade" prior to The Big Goodbye that the Holodeck could create people and other characters.

If we accept the TNG S1 episodes in their production/airdate order, rather than playing with the odd stardates, then the first time holographic people are seen is "Code of Honor", with the sparring partner. The second time is "The Big Goodbye" where there is indeed mention of an upgrade, and apparently Picard has never before had to face the fact that holocharacters would react to his Starfleet uniform.

Yet in "11001001", just three episodes later, Riker creates a jazz joint full of people, and is already familiar enough with the concept of holopeople that he can quickly tell how Minuet is something special and different again.

(If we go by stardate, "The Big Goodbye" gets bumped to the end of the season. Too bad that Tasha is alive there, or otherwise the stardate order would work more or less fine.)

We can't really tell whether our characters are impressed by the very existence of holodecks and holopeople when we first see them interact with those. They could simply be impressed by the improved quality of those things aboard the E-D, as opposed to their previous assignments. Picard for one spent decades in an obsolete rust bucket on the outer fringes of the Federation - he might never have had a high performance holodeck available to him before "The Big Goodbye". Riker transferred from a less advanced starship as well, before getting all gushed up about the hologarden in "Farpoint". But then again, we know that the younger man is a connoisseur of holotainment, as evidenced by his soft-porn tabletop display. He'd probably have sought the best the Federation can offer, and still the E-D 'deck impressed him.

Nevertheless, there's nothing to say that holodecks (although perhaps by other names) couldn't have existed back in the 2260s, as featured in TAS "The Practical Joker". They just had a slightly more cartoony look back then.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mitty]

Without reading through this thread to see if anyone else has made a similar commment, I think the snowball leaving the holodeck is the least of this episodes problems!

 

[Timo]

Oh, I found it entertaining enough. There's a nice, TOSsy twist to the then-standard TNGish premise of "our hands are tied by a silly directive". There is eye candy for all. There is an ominous reference to Romulans.

Of course, if you read the penultimate script at TrekCore, it may not surprise you much that the climax of the episode was essentially written on stage, with just an "Insert touching speech here to bring everything to conclusion" placeholder there...

Timo Saloniemi