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A question about Season 2 episode Minefield

EmoBorg

Commodore
Commodore
In the scene from the Minefield episode, where Enterprise encounters a Romulan minefield in a star system and the crew hear a message warning ships to stay away from the system. Hoshi mentions that the message identified the sender as the Romulan Star empire.

T'Pol seem to know about them and tells Archer that they are aggressive and territorial and the Vulcans have never made direct contact with them.


I was wondering about two things.

1) Did T'Pol know more about the Romulans including the fact they were descended from Vulcans who rejected Surak teachings.

2) If she knew more, why did she hide it from Archer?
 
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I believe nobody including the Vulcan's knew what a Romulan looked like until 'Balance of Terror' a hundred years after this episode. The Vulcan's probably knew very little, at least as much as T'Pol disclosed.
 
If she knew more, why did she hide it from Archer?
My impression of Enterprise was that T'Pol was hiding a whole hell of a lot from Archer, and not just about the Romulans.

I'd think that at that point in the series (early season 2), she still did (hide a lot). I suppose she didn't anymore from, say, season 3 onwards. Or at the very least, not because she was personally convinced she should.
 
I don't think the Vulcans knew. They might have suspected, but I don't think they ever had any hard evidence that the Romulans were The Sundered.
 
If the Romulan didn't start using that identifier until after they left Vulcan, there would no reason for T'Pol (or Spock) to know the Romulans to be descendants of Vulcan emigrants.
 
1) Did T'Pol know more about the Romulans including the fact they were descended from Vulcans who rejected Surak teachings.

2) If she knew more, why did she hide it from Archer?

There's no way to know what T'Pol knew or didn't know about Romulans (possibly more might have been revealed in seasons 5-7). If she did know, there was no reason to tell Archer, as it wasn't relevant to the situation.
 
1) Did T'Pol know more about the Romulans including the fact they were descended from Vulcans who rejected Surak teachings.

2) If she knew more, why did she hide it from Archer?

There's no way to know what T'Pol knew or didn't know about Romulans (possibly more might have been revealed in seasons 5-7). If she did know, there was no reason to tell Archer, as it wasn't relevant to the situation.

That is the thing that bothered me. Based on T'Pol's behaviour throughout the first 2 seasons, she knew things but kept quiet about them unless Archer asked a question specifically about the matter.

She did not lie but she did not tell the whole truth either.

Her secretive behaviour towards the humans did not help matters. That is why i got the feeling that she knew more about the Romulans than she was letting on. How much she knew, i really don't know.
 
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1) Did T'Pol know more about the Romulans including the fact they were descended from Vulcans who rejected Surak teachings.

2) If she knew more, why did she hide it from Archer?

There's no way to know what T'Pol knew or didn't know about Romulans (possibly more might have been revealed in seasons 5-7). If she did know, there was no reason to tell Archer, as it wasn't relevant to the situation.



"Spock" was the same way in "Into Darkness".
 
In the scene from the Minefield episode, where Enterprise encounters a Romulan minefield in a star system and the crew hear a message warning ships to stay away from the system. Hoshi mentions that the message identified the sender as the Romulan Star empire.

T'Pol seem to know about them and tells Archer that they are aggressive and territorial and the Vulcans have never made direct contact with them.


I was wondering about two things.

1) Did T'Pol know more about the Romulans including the fact they were descended from Vulcans who rejected Surak teachings.

2) If she knew more, why did she hide it from Archer?

I don't think she did know. They (Vulcans) had likely never seen actual Romulan people; only their ships.
 
In the scene from the Minefield episode, where Enterprise encounters a Romulan minefield in a star system and the crew hear a message warning ships to stay away from the system. Hoshi mentions that the message identified the sender as the Romulan Star empire.

T'Pol seem to know about them and tells Archer that they are aggressive and territorial and the Vulcans have never made direct contact with them.


I was wondering about two things.

1) Did T'Pol know more about the Romulans including the fact they were descended from Vulcans who rejected Surak teachings.

2) If she knew more, why did she hide it from Archer?

I don't think she did know. They (Vulcans) had likely never seen actual Romulan people; only their ships.

It was true that during the first season or two, T'Pol would not volunteer information. Archer would have to ask her directly. Even so, I tend to believe she really didn't know much about the Romulans during the Minefield episode. In fact, by season 4, she was pretty solid in support of Archer, and during the episodes with the Romulan marauder vessel (Babel One/United/the Aener) she did not have any information , or any further insight , to offer.
 
It very much appears that T'Pol knows at least one thing about the Romulans that would not be evident to random people running into Romulans. The Average Joe would apparently always hear them say "Rumalin Star Empire", but T'Pol can ignore that and argue that it's "really" pronounced "Romulan" instead.

How can she know better? Do the Romulans in a longer conversation eventually change the pronunciation, and reveal that the original incorrect pronunciation was just a joke they play on strangers?

Or is it that she knows the Romulans from another context? An earlier point of history? A time when they still called themselves Romulans? A time when Vulcans knew them as Romulans, even though they themselves always used the pronunciation Rumalin?

T'Pol knowing the pronunciation but nothing else certainly sounds inconceivable...

Timo Saloniemi
 
The Vulcans have long standing relationships with other space faring cultures of the region. It's reasonable to conclude that some of them may know the name and correct pronunciation of the Romulan Star Empire. And to stay away from them. They're bad.
 
(Hoshi listens to the alien recording.)
HOSHI: They're ordering us to leave their system immediately or they'll destroy us.
TUCKER: Charming. Could you figure out a way to compose a message back, explaining we're going as fast as we can?
HOSHI: I can try.
T'POL: And their next message?
HOSHI: They say they've annexed this planet in the name of something called The Romalin Star Empire.
T'POL: Romulan. It's pronounced Romulan.

Which makes no sense. If Hoshi is repeating what she heard in a Romulan audio message, does that mean the Romulans mispronounced their own name? It's just shoddy writing.
 
(Hoshi listens to the alien recording.)
HOSHI: They're ordering us to leave their system immediately or they'll destroy us.
TUCKER: Charming. Could you figure out a way to compose a message back, explaining we're going as fast as we can?
HOSHI: I can try.
T'POL: And their next message?
HOSHI: They say they've annexed this planet in the name of something called The Romalin Star Empire.
T'POL: Romulan. It's pronounced Romulan.
Which makes no sense. If Hoshi is repeating what she heard in a Romulan audio message, does that mean the Romulans mispronounced their own name? It's just shoddy writing.


Hoshi translated the Romulan language. Did she not know the Vulcan language? If she knew Vulcan, she being a linguist, would have realized how close the Romulan language was to the Vulcan language.
 
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^

Romulans left Vulcan over 2.000 years ago. Even on Earth languages evolve or die out. Modern Romulan may sound totally different from modern (or ancient) Vulcan.
 
True, for example try reading some Middle or Old English to see how it compares to Modern English, you might be able to read some Middle English but I suspect Old English wouldn't make much sense.
 
True, for example try reading some Middle or Old English to see how it compares to Modern English, you might be able to read some Middle English but I suspect Old English wouldn't make much sense.

For a trained linguist like Hoshi, she would have noticed the similarities. I think Hoshi did have some understanding of Vulcan because the Vulcans were our close allies and she did have an interest in alien languages.

I think the writers did not think things through when writing that episode.
 
The thing is, arguing about that particular point is moot now. The first new movie establishes as a solid pseudo-fact that the Vulcan and Romulan languages are in fact almost indistinguishable, and one can be mistaken for the other even by a person who in theory might be able to do a translation.

This is clearly knowledge that is only accessible to the alternate version of late 2250s mankind, of course. Due to some event that did not take place in the original timeline, they already know Romulans are Vulcans. Perhaps information about how Nero looked like in the 2233 encounter somehow leaked to Starfleet, along with information establishing Nero as Romulan (even though neither of these was evident onscreen in the actual movie)?

But never mind. If Sato didn't spot the similarity, then we more or less have to assume that the Romulans were not transmitting in their native language after all. Perhaps these suspicious bastards ran their own speech through the UT before sending it out, making them sound like native N'bodians?

Also, we have to assume that whatever came out of the speakers was "Rumalin", whatever the explanation for that. Multiple scenarios are possible:

1) That's how the word really is pronounced in the modern Romulan language. But T'Pol remembers ye olden days, when a certain notorious group on Vulcan called themselves Romulans, and makes the connection on the spot.

2) The language hasn't changed a bit. The modern Romulans just have decided to call themselves the Rumalin Star Empire, for whatever reason; perhaps their great leader after the death of S'Task was named Rumalin? After all, they no longer are a population group or political faction on Vulcan - why should they refer to themselves by a name specific to those circumstances?

3) The transmission was garbled, and the Romulans said Romulan but Hoshi didn't quite catch it, and the famed Universal Translator was of no help in spell-checking alien proper names.

Personally, I like to think it's the first scenario. Reverse the roles and have the Vulcans venture out into deep space for the very first time with a condescending human observer aboard to chaperon them. A starship appears, with a red-white-black flag painted on the hull. T'Sato says "They hail from the Nutsy Sternenreich". The observer goes pale and says "Nazi. It's pronounced Nazi."

At that point, it doesn't matter much that T'Sato thinks their language sounds a bit like old Earth German. For all she knows, most people in the excitingly alien galaxy speak Earthling languages, for reasons of galactic history unknown to the Vulcan upstarts.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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