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A Cross-series Observation: If Klingons are such legendary warriors, why are they so easily defeated or dejected by Starfleet?

M

Mr. Friscus

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One issue I have with the writing of Klingons in TNG, DS9, etc. is that Klingons are not only referred to, but represented as, dominant warriors who can fight using hand-to-hand combat or technology.

Yet, time and time again throughout the episodes and seasons you see stiff, basic starfleet cadets and officers dominate Klingons not only in hand-to-hand combat, but quickly stun or kill Klingons who foolishly beam over in open areas. The Klingons miss their shots, they get tossed around.

Hell, a 170lb Picard said the legendary line "You may test that claim at your convenience" while being threatened as he supported Worf, and the Klingon backed down? On his own turf at the high council?

I'm not saying Klingons should just kill starfleet and win, but the writing was horrible to depict Klingons verbally as unbeatable warriors and yet show how outright dumb and incompetent they often are when fighting.
 
The Wormhole said:
Starfleet are the heroes of Star Trek, so of course they can defeat everyone, even supposedly unbeatable warriors. Welcome to Fiction 101.
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It is very true. But, I'll indulge a little past Fiction Writing 101.

And it's actually something that comes up in a comic, the trial of James T. Kirk. Kirk notes that despite the robustness of Klingons capability humans turn them back time and time again.

The reasons why are probably not so obvious to us Earthers, given the bias of the show towards us but a Klingon is very personal glory and honor first then glory to the house and then to the Empire. We see it a couple of times with different ships treated lesser because of their record and not given much opportunity to prove themselves unless they take it.

So, Klingons are rather inflexible in their missions of glory and honor. They become myopic, and will often deprive themselves of getting better soldiers because of you're a poor warrior you deserve shame not more opportunity to learn.

Starfleet espouses mutual cooperation and effort, working to support and aid others rather than put them down.

Humans can be arrogant and prideful but they'll also put themselves in the line for each other.
 
fireproof78 said:
It is very true. But, I'll indulge a little past Fiction Writing 101.

And it's actually something that comes up in a comic, the trial of James T. Kirk. Kirk notes that despite the robustness of Klingons capability humans turn them back time and time again.

The reasons why are probably not so obvious to us Earthers, given the bias of the show towards us but a Klingon is very personal glory and honor first then glory to the house and then to the Empire. We see it a couple of times with different ships treated lesser because of their record and not given much opportunity to prove themselves unless they take it.
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I appreciate the reply and perspective. I get that you're tapping into inspiration and motivation for fighting (the old adage that 1,000 homeland defenders can defeat 10,000 mercenaries)... but let's be honest. Klingon's are taught from birth to fight, and thus you would think tactics would have to be involved. I can admit there can be situations where you can goad a Klingon to charge forward into shooting fish in a barrel and feed off their pride and willingness to die, but in general they would have to be good tactitions and definitely be able to man-handle and defeat basic Starfleet personnel when in combat.

I think writing should have required multiple Federation ships or members to defeat a klingon vessel or warrior, and believable circumstance could explain away if Starfleet officers got the better of Klingon warriors. But man-to-man at their peak? The Klingons should be written to win.
fireproof78 said:
So, Klingons are rather inflexible in their missions of glory and honor. They become myopic, and will often deprive themselves of getting better soldiers because of you're a poor warrior you deserve shame not more opportunity to learn.
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Certainly, we see that Klingons can assume a great deal about family members with a glass half full.. without truly analyzing if they are capable. However, the culture of being a warrior would (in my opinion) demand a high level ability even in the lower echelons of Klingon fighters.
fireproof78 said:
Starfleet espouses mutual cooperation and effort, working to support and aid others rather than put them down.

Humans can be arrogant and prideful but they'll also put themselves in the line for each other.
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While I think you can bait and drag Klingon warriors to break lines easier than well-disciplined humans (or Romulans for that matter), I don't think they're all that foolish.
 
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Mr. Friscus said:
Klingon's are taught from birth to fight, and thus you would think tactics would have to be involved.
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Yes, they are trained from a young age to fight as "Individual Warriors".

Team Fighting, Group Fighting Tactics, Strategy.

That's harder to say given what we've seen.

We know for a fact that Humans don't focus soley on Individual Fighting Prowess, but also on Team-work, Co-Operation, Battle-Field Tactics, & Strategy.
 
Mr. Friscus said:
Klingon's are taught from birth to fight, and thus you would think tactics would have to be involved. I can admit there can be situations where you can goad a Klingon to charge forward into shooting fish in a barrel and feed off their pride and willingness to die, but in general they would have to be good tactitions and definitely be able to man-handle and defeat basic Starfleet personnel when in combat.
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I think they learn tactics at an individual level, but probably not a unit level.
Mr. Friscus said:
Certainly, we see that Klingons can assume a great deal about family members with a glass half full.. without truly analyzing if they are capable. However, the culture of being a warrior would (in my opinion) demand a high level ability even in the lower echelons of Klingon fighters.
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It would depend on the style of combat being taught. In Deep Space Nine, the Klingons are shown using a mix of melee and energy weapons resulting in them being able to be routed at times.

The emphasis on melee combat is great, but limits their flexibiity.
Mr. Friscus said:
While I think you can bait and drag Klingon warriors to break lines easier than well-disciplined humans (or Romulans for that matter), I don't think they're all that foolish.
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To borrow a quote: — Sergeant Zim says (correctly) that any group is weaker than a man alone unless they are perfectly trained to work together.

Klingons are set to fight for the glory of the individual first, meaning that group tactics may not be as emphasized. We see that Klingons can be easily ambushed (DS9 and TOS), and then baited in to one on one combat.
 
The Klingons definitely have some biological advantages, with redundant backup organs and a higher tolerance for blood wine, but I don't think they've ever been shown as unbeatable warriors. Trained Klingon soldiers have been roughly equal to Starfleet officers in a brawl since the start; they were the equal and opposite of the Federation.
 
Needs of the story, and of our Starfleet heroes to come out on top.

The Borg are supposed to be very close to invincible, yet they routinely also lose.
 
Another conundrum... Vulcans live 200 years, so they could easily have century-long Starfleet careers.... so why aren't the high-ranking officers nearly all Vulcans?
 
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Oddish said:
Another conundrum... Vulcans live 200 years, so they could easily have century-long Starfleet careers.... so why aren't the high-ranking officers nearly all Vulcans?
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We've seen in episodes like Tapestry that officers don't automatically get promoted to the higher ranks through age and experience. They have to go beyond what's expected of them, get noticed, and demonstrate a kind of thinking that doesn't necessarily come naturally to a Vulcan.
 
Oddish said:
Another conundrum... Vulcans live 200 years, so they could easily have century-long Starfleet careers.... so why aren't the high-ranking officers nearly all Vulcans?
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Not all of them want to be in StarFleet for that long, they might have other passions beyond StarFleet.

Even with a very long life, it's still finite.

They need to find time to do other things that they want to do in life.

While StarFleet service is noble, one may want to find time to have a family, help out their home town / community, go into other things.
 
Oddish said:
Another conundrum... Vulcans live 200 years, so they could easily have century-long Starfleet careers.... so why aren't the high-ranking officers nearly all Vulcans?
Click to expand...

Or El-Aurians, for that matter. They live a lot longer than Vulcans still and many of them would have been on Federation soil by the late 24th century after they fled the Borg.
 
Oddish said:
Vulcans live 200 years, so they could easily have century-long Starfleet careers.... so why aren't the high-ranking officers nearly all Vulcans?
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We did see a few. However with their non-emotional deficit, commanding crews composed of other than Vulcans could be difficult for a Vulcan commanding officer.
The Wormhole said:
Starfleet are the heroes of Star Trek, so of course they can defeat everyone, even supposedly unbeatable warriors.
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For the hero crew of the hero ship yes, but what about Starfleet as a whole?

In Yesterday's Enterprise, the Federation and the Empire were in a all out war, and the Federation was losing.
 
Oddish said:
Another conundrum... Vulcans live 200 years, so they could easily have century-long Starfleet careers.... so why aren't the high-ranking officers nearly all Vulcans?
Click to expand...
Probably because they like to pursue other avenues of learning and not just leadership.
 
I think a lot of it is that the Klingon mentality was to their own detriment and development. We can see in Enterprise how they had many scientists and the like, but afterwards it appears the Warrior class really snuffed out development. It can also be seen in their Ship designs, they are very slow to develop new technologies and ships. Their ships look like they are all falling apart. They have mass numbers, but poor quality equipment in my eyes. After the Dominion war I can see them finally getting out of that mentality, or if not, joining the Federation a century or two down the road. I don’t consider Discovery’s future episodes canon.
 
Klingons fancy themselves as some of the best warriors in the galaxy. They like to tell people about it all the time. They can't wait to drop the words "warrior" and "honor." They're the vegans of Star Trek. However, does anyone else really ever describe them as such? Do we have any evidence of it being fact? Or is it merely some self-serving PR from the Empire?
 
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