Because only about half of each show can actually be rebuilt like TNG; the rest is CGI that will need to be recreated from scratch.
The OFFICIAL STNG-R general discussion thread!
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DS9 used mostly practical effects up into the 6th season, along with the Odo CGI morphs and (IIRC) wormhole enhancements.
Voyager went pure CGI after season 3 or 4.
Oh don't get me wrong. I'm truly hoping that they will remaster both DS9 and Voyager. I also don't believe that the increased amount of CGI work over TNG will be much of an issue. Even if they aren't creating many CGI sequences at the moment we have already seen they can make them without much trouble. However, that doesn't mean we can take it for granted that these series will me ordered, as that will depend on what CBS deems financially viable. That 9 million price tag might make it less likely. So hopefully the seasons get cheaper to remaster with time.
2 episodes - event
I just came across this:
and there is a new vertical poster for the July 23 event at the link.
source
the list of movie theaters is here.
also another horizontal poster here.
I just came across this:
and there is a new vertical poster for the July 23 event at the link.
source
the list of movie theaters is here.
also another horizontal poster here.
I seriously doubt they're spending several hundred thousand dollars (or a "few million" for EaF) to redo these episodes.
Well, each 45 minute episode is getting a brand new (probably 2K) digital intermediate... and that's an expensive process just by itself, ignoring all other costs.
A typical D.I. involves:
- Scanning (usually @ 4K, downsampled on the fly to 2K)
- Autoconform (editing the uncut neg using original EDLs)
- Titles, transition effects (fades & dissolves), etc.
- Color-correction (@ $500/hr over several 8-hour days)
- Dust removal and scratch repair (if necessary)
- Laser recording back to 35mm (not needed in this case)
- Downconversion to HD (with appropriate broadcast color correction)
Again that doesn't include anything else, such as the cost of shipping 2,500 cartons with at least 25,000 reels of film negative in them (a single reel weighs 5 pounds) in refrigerated trucks from Pennsylvania to L.A. (both ways), re-creating Season One's approximately 1,700 VFX shots (most from original elements, some not) and employing more than 20 people at CBS Digital working full time in three shifts 24 hours a day for more than a year, hiring a separate team to shoot interviews/create special feature content, authoring costs of Blu-ray, replication costs, etc. The list goes on and on.
According to the EW article, "The entire process of converting an episode into high def can take anywhere from four to six weeks — some episodes have as few as a dozen effects shots, while others can have over 100."
Thank you Max, your insights are much appreciated. Your post really makes me appreciate CBS on a whole new level.
From your understanding, how difficult would it be for CBS to re-release TNG in 4k when that becomes necessary someday? I'm just thinking from a future-proofing angle, given the amount of investment and effort they are surely looking to get decades of their money's worth out of this project.
From your understanding, how difficult would it be for CBS to re-release TNG in 4k when that becomes necessary someday? I'm just thinking from a future-proofing angle, given the amount of investment and effort they are surely looking to get decades of their money's worth out of this project.
Too bad they didn't use a telecine that samples at 4K and then downrezzes to 1080p though.
I think it is also 2K telecine and restoration.Most likely it is using the industry-standard mastering tape format for TV: HDCAM SR since the teaser video says:
that could be 1080x1920 pixels or 2K.
The broadcast high end VTRs SRW-5800/2 specs say:
This was done for TNG to be broadcast HD syndication, HD paid downloads, and Blu-ray release which the Blu-ray release tops out at 1080x1920p.
For mastering though it's probably 2K and HD 1080p.
Look it is still pretty amazing for a TV show 25 years old that this is being done at all. 1080p is still 6X the resolution of NTSC video that is was originally mastered at.
So does that mean the series will be maxed out at 1080p? No QFHD possible? This is not a complaint, I would just like to know what the possibilities will be.
Basically, yes. The 4K Spirit DataCine scanners (the kind seen in the teaser video above) scan at 4K, but can easily downsample on the fly to 2K output if required (the image is resized in an internal spatial converter according to Thompson, the company who makes them). Here are the 2K resolutions for each of the various 35mm camera apertures (because I just can't help myself
):
These are all valid 2K resolutions based on what part of the negative is used. It's interesting to note that "Sins of the Father" on the Next Level Blu-ray used the TV Safe Action Area (the yellow rectangle) for the most part... while that episode's VFX plates and all the other Season One episodes (including Season Five's "The Inner Light") used the larger TV Transmitted Area (the green rectangle) and then they must have downscaled the frame by 10% to get to 1440 x 1080. Probably because the show's DP's and camera operators framed using TV Transmitted Area for the most part.
We'll know for sure when we see the special features on the Season One set. I'm sure they'll throw some fancy numbers and camera apertures around.
But what will CBS be left with following this process? Will they have something that can easily be used to make 4k QFHD masters or would that require them to redo everything from scratch like they are doing now (aka: it's never going to happen)?
Probably never going to happen. It's a television show after all -- I'm not aware of any television show that has gone through a full 4K DI (even shows that are currently in production). 4K is usually the domain of feature films. I'd be very surprised if that's what they tell us in the Blu-ray special features... that they've done a full 4K DI. The original scan was possibly oversampled at 4K, but probably immediately downscaled to some 2K format.
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Seems a little short sighted to me. Sure in the 80s nobody could think of why anyone would need or want anything beyond standard definition for home use. Yet here we are today trying to fathom the exact opposite. Once we have wall sized OLEDs even 1080p wont cut it anymore. Does this industry ever look ahead?
R.O.I. CBS Home Video is footing the bill for this. They see Blu-ray sales of the season sets worldwide, HD broadcast syndication in the USA and foreign markets, HD downloads of episodes on a per-episode purchase basis, HD streaming of episodes on a all-you-can-eat subscription rental basis with Netflix, Amazon on-demand streaming, and other on-demand streaming subscription-based services in foreign markets. And there may be a DVD release of the episodes in remastered samplers for the Region 1 market (Yes I know but selling units is selling units and there is still a market for it[DVD-only]).
That is it.
After that all dies down it will be a TV series in HD made from the original camera negative and approximately 35 years old when Blu-ray dies out as a physical release medium in the USA.
ENT the series was mastered at 1080p and season 4 was shot digitally at 1080p. They are not going to get higher resolution out of ENT and not out of TNG either. This is it.
CBS Home video is not going to spend the money now for a 4K remaster & 4K visual effects for a TV series that 1080p HD is required for for another 15 years.
They are budgeted for all 7 seasons for remastering barring any major VFX needed. I can see a possible upgrade to a telecine machine where they might get lucky if the facility does this and then get a 4K scan downscaled to 2K in the next couple years for a few later seasons on TNG.
Any new series going forward will probably be shot with 4K digital cameras to protect for possible 4K streaming releases. I made a thread in Future of Trek on this topic: Futureproofing (for viewing) the next Trek TV series
where I mentioned that maybe they will shoot the pilot episode in stereoscopic 3-D to protect for the future. The sound will be mixed in 7.1 surround from the start.
Sorry, overall it was a great post, but then you lost me on the end. The ROI matters for TNG but not a future show? Why would CBS want to spend more money on a show that might flop after not spending the extra money on a show they know is a hit?
Show me a current TV show that is shot in 2k/4k with 7.1 sound and I'll accept it's possible CBS will do it for Star Trek. Show me that most current shows are shooting that way, and I'll accept that it's probable. Until then it's just wishful fan thinking.
Oh and show me a home broadband service fast enough to stream 4k without having massive compression artifacts.
Ian Keldon
Fleet Captain
I'm sorry, but I don't buy the crocodile tears about how much CBS is "investing" in this work. <$100,000/ep compared to a new show, filmed ground up that will break $1 million/ep easy.
And they're STILL going to price-gouge the heck out of it. Amazon just graciously "lowered" it's price to match Wal-Mart's $80/set.
A brand new show that cost more than 10x as much to make goes for $30-40/set.
And lets not even get into the fact that there's no DVD format release for those of us who can't afford Blu Ray players...
CBS should be ashamed of itself for following in Paramount's footsteps and giving it to the fans w/o lube.
And they're STILL going to price-gouge the heck out of it. Amazon just graciously "lowered" it's price to match Wal-Mart's $80/set.
A brand new show that cost more than 10x as much to make goes for $30-40/set.
And lets not even get into the fact that there's no DVD format release for those of us who can't afford Blu Ray players...
CBS should be ashamed of itself for following in Paramount's footsteps and giving it to the fans w/o lube.
Can't afford a Blu-ray player? What exactly is your target price point?
Blu-ray players usually start at $60 retail (less during holiday sales). Considering the first Blu-ray players cost $1000 just six years ago, I'd say that's a steal. I got a Panasonic Blu-ray player during a day after Christmas sale at Fry's last year for $50.
Also, the Blu-ray set of Star Trek: The Original Series Season 1 showed up for pre-order on Amazon in February '09 for $90.99. It then fell to $65 upon release in late April and ended up around $57 during the holidays. Season 2 was similar, showed up for pre-order on Amazon in July '09 for $90.99. It then fell to $60 upon release in late September and ended up around $55 during the holidays.
Something similar will probably happen with Seasons 1 & 2 of TNG this holiday season.
You seem to not grasp some very basic concepts.
Shows that are released (as well as films) generally don't have much in the way of new costs associated with them. Just the general transfer. And the cost to produce and ship the media.
For the vast majority of the tv medium, ancillary markets are just additional revenue streams, with little to no additional cost.
This and TOS (as an example) are one of the very few projects for home release that incur considerable new costs.
Seriously before making complaints name one other television show that is having to completely reassembly their episodes (let alone adding completely new touches as well). The answer to the best of my current knowledge is none.
When a new show makes their edit and master for broadcast. That holds for overseas release, for streaming, and for physical media sales. They don't have to completely edit their footage again.
All they must do is scan the master copy. And in some cases do some cleanup.
Thats the standard practice for old shows and new alike.
And while you might find new shows that sell for 30 to 40, that isn't the list price. As most of those list for 69 to 89.99 a season. And thats for typically 22 episodes a season.
On off networks shows, most have episode counts as low as 6 to 13 and most list for at least 69.99 a season.
As for not liking the fact that currently their is no version for DVD's. Did you also complain when they stopped the VHS release of episodes and did you feel forced to purchase a DVD player.
I got my Bluray two years ago for $50. Out of VHS, Laser Disc, DVD and Bluray players, the Bluray player was the fastest one to drop down that low.
Hell I remember in the 90's still paying over $100 for a VHS player over 15 years since the first unit I bought.
This release is the closest the tv platform on season sets has gotten to match episode to episode costs of normal off network releases.
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