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The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

You have writer in your name. I would assume you of all people understand show don’t tell.

Back in 1977, did we see the trauma that Obi-Wan went through in regards to the death of Luke's father? No. We were told. And while that story was expounded upon and eventually shown, it was not done for many years. I don't disagree that it oftentimes is better to show rather than tell, I do also think that sometimes for storytelling purposes, its easier to just tell. I also believe the emotional weight of losing a child to the "dark forces" of life were pretty well felt through Fisher and Ford's performances.
 
Back in 1977, did we see the trauma that Obi-Wan went through in regards to the death of Luke's father? No. We were told. And while that story was expounded upon and eventually shown, it was not done for many years. I don't disagree that it oftentimes is better to show rather than tell, I do also think that sometimes for storytelling purposes, its easier to just tell. I also believe the emotional weight of losing a child to the "dark forces" of life were pretty well felt through Fisher and Ford's performances.

Thing is, that worked precisely because we hadn’t seen Obi wan at that point either. It doesn’t work here because we have seen these characters before.

One of the things I like about SpaceHunter is how much world building is done by conversations between characters we have never seen before or will again...we dip into the world, watch a corner of it, and out again.
It’s a cheesy eighties movie, but it learnt that from Star Wars and got it right.

Thinking back to Star Wars of then...imagine Empire was never released. We go straight from Star Wars to Return of the Jedi. How would people have responded? How would that have worked? All the important bits from Empire we are told about in Jedi, after all. Would these two films, released about half a decade apart, have had the same effect as the trilogy we got?
And Jedi doesn’t even assassinate the characters of the leads.

Imagine Phantom Menace had been the first film, then we skip to A New Hope, then to Return of the Jedi. Anakin grows into a Jedi, falls to the dark side, all off screen, Obi Wan becomes a master, fails to stop him, goes into exile, all off screen. Anakin marries, has children, loses his wife and his children are hidden from him, all off screen. Then A New Hope happens, we still don’t know half of this, because we think Vader and Anakin are two people. Then Jedi, and suddenly Luke and Leia are sisters, Leia and Han are in love, Han is in carbonite...and it turns out there’s anothe Jedi Master who trained Luke in the interim, Obi Wans a Ghost and oh yeah...Vader is Anakin and Luke and Leias dad. And that creepy old senator is the Emperor. We don’t even know Amidala is The mother of the kids, and Han Solos best bud has sprung from Zeus forehead.

It’s amazing how much of what is missing between those segments of what we had previously matches up so well with what happened off screen in the ST.

Now ask...would Phantom Menace, A New Hope and Return of the Jedi have been as successful a trilogy as what we had? Would it even have been as successful as the PT?
There are important steps missing, and that was a choice that was made.
 
Thing is, that worked precisely because we hadn’t seen Obi wan at that point either. It doesn’t work here because we have seen these characters before.
Disagree. We are told the entire story of Anakin but never shown. The weight comes from the characters.
 
You miss the point that Star Wars is a trilogy of trilogies with years between the trilogies. The stuff we see? That’s the most important part. Some people think they need why Ben Solo fall. Others think they need the background of Snoke. I trust the storytellers to tell me what I need to know.

Ben Solo is of the Skywalker lineage. They’re strong in the Force but they have a tendency towards the Dark Side. Ben has an obsession with his grandfather, who was Darth Vader, a man who wreaked havoc on the galaxy. He was seduced by Snoke, an individual who may or may not have a connection to Palpatine, the same man who seduced his grandfather to the dark side.

Honestly, for me? That’s all I need to know.
 
Honestly, for me? That’s all I need to know.
Same here. I think much of storytelling is lost with the expectation of everything being explained.

My main thought is do I feel lost by the story? If I can follow along then I think it's ok.
 
Same here. I think much of storytelling is lost with the expectation of everything being explained.

My main thought is do I feel lost by the story? If I can follow along then I think it's ok.

Less is more in my opinion. One of the reasons I think Interstellar is a weak film. It tries to be this generation’s 2001 but feels that the audience are a bunch of morons by talking through the entire sequence of the time travel stuff. It was too much for me.
 
To go back to Luke for a second, I did remember one thing in regards to Vader and Kylo I haven't seen anyone mention. In Return of the Jedi he specifically says that he can still sense good in Vader, and that was why he was so convinced he could be redeemed, but when he attacked Ben all he sensed was an overwhelming darkness. At that moment he didn't sense the kind of conflict that he had in Vader, all he felt was darkness, and it terrified him, and so he reacted instinctively to destroy that darkness.
 
To go back to Luke for a second, I did remember one thing in regards to Vader and Kylo I haven't seen anyone mention. In Return of the Jedi he specifically says that he can still sense good in Vader, and that was why he was so convinced he could be redeemed, but when he attacked Ben all he sensed was an overwhelming darkness. At that moment he didn't sense the kind of conflict that he had in Vader, all he felt was darkness, and it terrified him, and so he reacted instinctively to destroy that darkness.
Just like he was taught.
 
You miss the point that Star Wars is a trilogy of trilogies with years between the trilogies. The stuff we see? That’s the most important part. Some people think they need why Ben Solo fall. Others think they need the background of Snoke. I trust the storytellers to tell me what I need to know.

Ben Solo is of the Skywalker lineage. They’re strong in the Force but they have a tendency towards the Dark Side. Ben has an obsession with his grandfather, who was Darth Vader, a man who wreaked havoc on the galaxy. He was seduced by Snoke, an individual who may or may not have a connection to Palpatine, the same man who seduced his grandfather to the dark side.

Honestly, for me? That’s all I need to know.

What, of importance, happened between the PT and the OT?
Pretty much nothing.
What, of importance, happened between the OT and the ST?
Damn near everything.
By modelling the ST on the OT, they inadvertently created a PT shaped hole between the two.
Now...it’s pretty obvious the OT doesn’t need the PT...but once it exists, and we have, as you say, a set of Trilogies, it forms a pattern. We never get to see the New Republic. It’s barely even a presence as it gets wiped out.
We never see a good Ben Solo, and unlike Anakin, we never get the sense that Ben was a good guy before his fall. Obi Wan was in exile to guard Luke, Yoda was in exile because the Empire was actively trying to kill Jedi, wipe out their religion/cast. Luke was in exile because he had an extraordinarily shit day, almost as bad as that time he found his dad wasn’t dead, but was an absentee father who was too busy wiping out Jedi and building superweapons; it turns out he didn’t even know Luke existed, but now he did and wanted him to come and join in....and when Luke didn’t, he got maimed and nearly dropped to his death while his best friend was sent to Captain Birdseye land.

This idea of trusting the storytellers is grand...but people generally don’t even trust the bloke who came up with the original story in the first place, after the PT. I mean, it’s astonishingly obvious George was building up to a sequel trilogy himself, but gave up and sold it on when no-one much bothered with the Phantom Menace 3D Re-release (following the same model he had with the special editions years earlier...he had already popped out the home media special special editions) but these guys can not, by definition be as familiar with SW as Lucas.

And we don’t trust him.

Why would I trust people who clearly didn’t plan this in any way in advance? (Much is made of how Lucas didn’t plan the OT in advance...this isn’t entirely true, it just mutated along the way. Much of Lucas plans from way back are still popping up in different ways.... Whills for instance. Qui Gon. It’s all pretty well known.)

I enjoy the films, but I think the criticisms made are valid, even if some people get carried away growling about it and adding on other silly criticisms like ‘no girls allowed’. I enjoy the films, and support them, but not blindly, and sadly not with the love I would expect. The overt defence of the wobbly bits is just as silly as the overt criticism...the idea that a lack of backstory should be seen as some great refreshing change, in a universe that is predicated on world-building done by at least bits of back-story, is concerning.
There is not a single mysterious thing I would like to know more about but don’t need to introduced in the ST. Maybe the Knights of Ren (except they are starting to sound suspiciously like Kylos Death Eaters, and for an ongoing thing...we sure haven’t seen them yet.)
There is stuff that the previous trilogies would have led to an expectation of seeing, and not the kind you can subvert. Because Jaina Skywalker could sweep in, kill Kylo, Marry Rey, wink at the screen holding her grandfathers purple light sabre (with the words ‘Bad Banthafrakker’ carved in the hilt) say Hi to her dad, Luke, as his flickers in ghost form suggest old TV sets, and it would subvert quite a lot of expectations. It would also be rubbish. Even if she killed Rey and married Kylo, thereby subverting some other expectations, it would still be rubbish. Because it would have come out of no-where. There’s no foundation.

The ST lacks foundation, but the good news is, thanks to SW past, it’s still possible to sure up the quicksand in some manner.
 
^ Hey, we’re all entitled to our opinions. And I won’t suggest that some criticisms I’ve read aren’t valid. I just choose, if I have criticisms about things (whether I enjoy them or not), not to spend my time being too negative. Life is too short to spend time as much time as some (not you) being downright angry. About a fucking movie!
 
It was a poor movie, depressing, dull and nonsensical.

People think it's because of the "alt right" or whatever but that doesn't even make sense, TFA was woke and everyone loved that.

Movie just wasn't good, period
 
It was a poor movie, depressing, dull and nonsensical.

People think it's because of the "alt right" or whatever but that doesn't even make sense, TFA was woke and everyone loved that.

Movie just wasn't good, period

Many disagree with you. Period.
 
The fact that most TLJ fans get, what is the word.... "triggered" at any criticism of it, tells you the kind of people most fans of it are, and hence the reasons why they are fans of it (clue it's not because it's a good movie)

Hehe
 
And many agree with me, that's kind of the point.

It's a very divisive movie which considering the goodwill it had going into it, is saying something

"Period"

Yes, it is a divisive movie. I have never suggested otherwise. I also don't have a problem with constructive criticism. I have a problem when someone matter-of-factly states that their opinion is fact.
 
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