Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonists?

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

:sighs:

No.

Look at the successful action girls. Are they lesbians? Nope. So do they need to be lesbians? Nope.

Look at some good male action heroes, like Rambo, the Terminator, John McClane in his third and fourth movie, Biggs in Lethal Weapon 1 + 2. Etc. etc. None of them have a romantic thing going on in their movies, yet the movies are great!

And here we have the thing that the successful action girls and the successful action guys have in come: THEY'RE IN GOOD MOVIES!

And that's also what the unsuccessful action girls have in common: THEY'RE IN BAD MOVIES!

You want more successful action girls, make GOOD MOVIES with them in it. Lesbian or no, romantic sub-plot it doesn't matter.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^ Since you don't seem to have bothered reading an earlier post virtually identical to yours and my response to it, I don't see why I should bother replying to your post. 'Cause I'm a swell guy, I guess.

What successful action girls? I mean artistically successful movies (not TV series) that feature one or more females in the primary roles, who are physically stronger than their love interests. Name one. That was the whole premise of my OP. Not rocket science.

T2 was indeed a rare good movie without a romantic subplot. But T1 and T3 did have romance. Die Hard 4 was just tiresome.

But all that's beside the point. The point is that none of these good male-centric action movies, most of which have romantic subplots, paired their heroes why physically stronger love interests.

@ Cicero: you describe a credible action-teamwork dynamic, but not necessarily a romantic one. The guy pines over the much stronger WW, but ignores his cute, glasses-wearing co-worker? I doubt that that would go over too well with a general movie-going public.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

You know, the simplest solution is probably just to kill off the hot male love interest three-quarters of the way through the movie. That way he doesn't need to be rescued, and it still leaves the heroine free to save the day on her own. You can even give him a heroic death that makes him sexier and more appealing, without undercutting the heroine at all.

Worked for TERMINATOR, ALIENS, etc. Not to mention pretty much every slasher movie.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Speaking of gender-flipped guy movies, has anyone seen Whip It? And of so, what did you think of it?


Marian

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^ Can't say as I have/will... unless Page and Barrymore have a romance, that is.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Apologies if this angle has already been addressed but I've found the main problem for me with movies like "Tomb Raider" is that Lara Croft doesn't feel like a female protagonist at all. There really is nothing to set her character apart from male action leads in the slightest. It's as though a male character just happens to be played by a woman. And it just feels wrong on so many levels, I think.

Whenever I think of successful female leads in action films I immediately think of Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley. What I find interesting about them is that they manage to have all the qualities it takes to be survivors and come through when nobody else does. But they never, in my mind, feel like essentially male characters that happen to be played by a woman. They manage to show that being a woman (and coming across as one beyond pure physical appearance) and being hard-ass most certainly are not mutually exclusive.

Sarah Connor is a very interesting example in this regard, I think (plus I certainly consider her a female lead). Her development is such IMHO that she is de-humanized, not de-feminized by what happens to her. I think it's an important distinction because she certainly loses certain character traits that one might consider typically female. But more importantly she loses character traits that define her humanity in the lack of a merciless foe.

In the case of "Alien" or "Aliens", I think it's very important that Ripley does not have a romantic interest. The story simply doesn't call for it and she certainly doesn't need it to work as a character or get her job done. And had "Aliens", in particular, gone down that path I think it would have ended up being endlessly cliché ridden given the overall situation and the other characters.
I also wouldn't consider the relationship between her and Hicks to be a romantic one. I always perceived it as a relationship characterized by a deep understanding of each other and comradeship. And this is something that I think is a classic trait of many, many great action movies (I should note that I'm not a big fan of "Aliens" but it certainly is one of the better examples with a female lead, I dare say).

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

After two careful perusals of the 11-minute 2003 short film D.E.B.S. on dvd (what those initials stand for, I still have no idea), conducted for your sakes and edifications, dear BBSers, I have come to the following conclusions:

1) The plot, meager budget, absence of laughs after the first thirty seconds (in which it is revealed that the SAT has secret questions that tests one's willingness to lie, cheat and kill) and general tepidness of the script would not justify watching the short...

2) If it didn't have, that is, two very attractive young women making out.

Clearly, further study on a feature basis is needed... in addition to/apart from the 2004 full-length D.E.B.S., that is, as Ebert and Roeper agreed that it was terrible.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

What problems do you have with butch lesbians, Rosie O'Donnell in particular (beside her being not in sync with you politically?) They are people like you, after all.

D.E.B.S. stands for Discipline, Energy, Beauty and Strength. And Ebert & Roper are being sexist pigs/old fuddy-duddies. The concept was quite funny, I loved the relationship between Lucy and Amy (and I'm a guy!)

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Seriously, dude, fucking seriously?

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^^ They were hardly alone in not digging it; most of the good reviewers were nonplussed.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

As much as I'd probably enjoy that movie, that's the problem with most action movies with a female lead and why the likes of Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor seem like characters from a bygone age.

They pretty much are just Female Lead Beats Up Everyone. They seem to just point the lead at the big boss at the end and then we spend two hours watching her beat up or kill everyone between her and him (it's almost invariably a him) with no real sense of jeopardy involved.

At least Ripley and Connor had the good sense to actually be scared of the Big Bad, at least to begin with.

A worthwhile hero has to lose sometimes in order to be heroic. There's nothing heroic about doing something easy.

Buffy did this right with a few villains - Adam, Glory, Caleb etc. They all beat the crap out of her the first time or the first few times they fought, making it all the more heroic when Buffy overcame that and finally defeated them.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

Wow, zombie thread!

At least there is some new content, I suppose.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

I didn't notice this had been Zombified.

/contacts CEDA.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

I don't see how a lesbian protagonist would make any difference whatsoever. If either of the 'love interests' in Tomb Raider had been women, how would it have changed the plot or the movie? Well, ok, beyond the positioning of Gerard Butler's towel!

Many men love the fantasy of a strong, dominant, sexy woman kicking ass in skimpy clothing and many women like to see an action heroine capable of taking care of herself - the popularity of a movie depends on the overall package of plot, pace, story, etc in my view. Look at Fifth Element - they managed to turn a powerful female heroine into a skimpily-dressed male fantasy that still needed to be nurtured and protected by a physically weaker male - an amusing film but crikey it was so incredibly sexist.

It would be great to see a lesbian lead, although better to see a gay male action lead as that seems to be the last major taboo. I think it will be years before the latter will happen and we will get gay support characters long before we'll have the main hero and probably a bisexual hero long before we get a full-on gay one.

EDIT: Oh and I noticed that the gay hero didn't make the cut in the movie version of State of Play. No surprise as two of the three heroes from the series were cut to save time but a shame nonetheless.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^Why is it treated as such an insult when a woman needs help from a man in these movies ? Why does Red Sonja seem to be the template for all further action films with female leads ?

Unless that question is answered, I won't really see any reason to go see the latest nonsensical tiny blonde girl beats up body armour wearing men twice her size movie.

It seems to me that such characters are welcomed right up until the point where they come up against someone who can and does fight back. Angelina Jolie getting pummelled by the bad guy in the opening reel so she can come back and win later would generate outrage - Misogyny! Violence towards women is wrong!

I'm always reminded of that scene in Angel where Buffy hits him, he hits her back and then he is treated like the abusive one, despite it being well established that she is stronger than him - what with him being a Vampire and her being a Vampire Slayer and all.

Let's put it this way - if Leia had been the one to receive Jedi training from Obi-Wan, the original trilogy would have ended a film earlier since she would have killed Vader in The Empire Strikes Back because there's no way she's losing the fight, let alone getting her hand chopped off.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

No sense of jeopardy in Terminator 2?! Not only is Sarah mentally unstable to the point of being murderous, she gets shot and spiked through her body with metal. Methinks you ought to watch the movie again.

Really? Did you read the OP? I cited the Tomb Raider movies specifically. How many male-centric action series go two movies without the guy getting the girl, without him either sleeping with her at some point or riding off with her into the sunset? How many of those second movies end with the guy killing the girl? (No, The World is Not Enough doesn't count, as Bond has by then replaced Elektra with Denise.)

Most guys see a male-centric action movie and picture themselves as the hero. Most guys see a female-centric action movie and wish the heroine was their girlfriend. Giving that heroine a successful, straight relationship rains on their parade - which is why Lara Croft isn't allowed to fall in love, imo, which is also partly why her movies are so emotionally unsatisfying.

No kidding, story is important. Again, did you read the OP? It was all about story, and emotional/romantic hooks for female protagonists. A fantasy in of itself isn't enough to sustain a two-hour movie.

Leeloo, a "powerful" heroine? Yeah, she was physcially strong, but she was also a newborn, traumatized since creation and jittery as heck for it - hardly my definition of "powerful". And call the movie guilty of sexual objectification, fine, I think "sexist" is pushing it, unless you think that mere hours after her creation and violent escape, Leeloo should've been cool under pressure as as Janeway. And if you find Fifth Element sexist, I assume you's say the same for Firefly/Serenity vis-a-vis River.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^I think you need to re-read my post, I was commenting that newer action heroines aren't like Sarah Connor. Connor was placed in near constant jeopardy and overcame it.

Modern action heroines are more like Red Sonja - nigh on invincible with no real threat, so they aren't convincing in the role.

I want characters like Ripley and Connor!

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

D'oh, you're right, I read your post late last night and didn't grok it. My apologies!

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

+1

What is required: better writing. Sure, most female action characters are lousy. So are most male action characters. It's not exactly a genre with a great track record for stellar writing.

I'd like to see a gay male action character as a lead. Now that would be gusty.

 

Re: Would Tomb Raider-type movies work better with lesbian protagonist

^

Spoiler: What about Willem Dafoe in...

The Boondock Saints?