And here is the bussard baffle design I was talking about: Aridas may not go for them but I had such a clear picture of what they would look like in my head that I just had to try 'em. To reiterate the design intent, the idea is that these baffles stay closed under normal stealth operation but can be opened when you need maximum efficiency and speed.
Vektor - Just to put my $0.02 worth in (and at the exchange rates, that ain't worth much! ), aside from the fact that this is a gorgeous ship and even the small changes you have made only add to its simplicity and beauty. Regarding the baffles - I have no problem with the idea of covering the collectors for stealth operations (for some time now I have been trying to draw with VERY limited skills a hand drawn version of a stealth ship complete with stealth probes for information gatehrine purposes - unfortunately, every time I come up with something it looks like a cross between the B-2 and the F-117, taking the ugliest aspects of both and combining them accordingly! ). Instead of doors that open outward, why not have the doors slide up over the nacelles for non stealth mode and down over the collectors for stealth mode. I know that physics in space is different than in the atmosphere, but I would be concerned about the doors wrenching off if they were in that open position. Just a thought. Great job on this and looking forward to more.
^^ What he said - as soon as I saw the images, and before reading his post, I thought, "? Wouldn't those look better - and maybe be more functional - if they slid back, either onto the outside of the nacelles or perhaps back into a slot that surrounds the collector at the base?" (no foreskin jokes, please )
^^ Ptrope - You read my mind. As soon as I posted the reply I almost edited it to keep the foreskin jokes to a minimum!!
I did try the slide-back approach first. Problem is, the curvature of the baffles doesn't match the wider nacelle body, which isn't necessarily a problem in mechanical terms but I didn't care for the mismatched look. Having them retract into the nacelle body is a possibility, though I presume it widens like that for a reason and that there is internal stuff in the way. I also thought about forgoing the baffles and having the entire bussard dome simply retract into the body, but that presents its own set of Trek tech issues. I went with the hinge-back option because of its simplicity and because it somewhat reminded me of a 1930s or '40s era prop plane, which is in line with many other aesthetic features of this design that appeal to me. It's not set in stone, though.
You're right, the physics in space are different. I realize these baffles bear some resemblance to aircraft speed brakes but there is no atmosphere to "wrench them off." If this ship were to enter atmosphere, they wouldn't be needing the bussard collectors and could simply close the baffles for streamlining. And if the spindly nacelle struts on this ship can handle the usual acceleration stresses then I'm certainly not worried about the baffles.
Welllll, technically the physics in space aren't different than in the atmosphere, unless you're talking about warp physics . Even though wind sheer wouldn't be an issue, obviously, there's always the fact of all that mass being hinged at a relatively small spot - things like this don't fly off because of friction, necessarily, but because of Newton. As for the widening of the nacelle, what's to say that it isn't because it contains the mechanicals for the bussard covers? . Or, to get really crazy - and even to touch back to an original TOS design element - what if the forward section of the nacelle 'collar' is separate and the entire thing can slide forward? It wouldn't necessarily need a mechanical 'accordian' or some such between it and the aft section of the collar, but that does make me think of that ridged section just aft of the collars behind the domes of good ol' NCC-1701. Maybe they did something we never saw ...
I stand corrected. Let's just say that the dynamics are different in and out of atmosphere and call it good. As for Newton, again I point out the nacelle pylons on the Kiaga, or on the TOS Enterprise for that matter. I long ago accepted that structural strength and resistance to acceleration forces are practical non-issues in the Trek universe. Maybe the baffle hinges are made of cast duranium reinforced with SIF fields. Whatever. They look cool. All are possibilities. I'll have to give it some further thought. The vibe I'm getting so far, though, is that the current design isn't exactly popular. I did get an email from Aridas to let me know he likes everything I've done so far, but he sent it before I posted the baffle renderings so we'll just have to see what he has to say.
Two suggestions. 1 - Would it be worth adding an extra segment on the ends of these baffles to partially cover the tip of the scoops as well as the sides? Either as a continuation of the existing structures or as an extra articulated piece. 2 - What if instead of opening up like a flower, the baffles slide back on a rail? As for the comparisons to the Akira, I know the feeling. People still e-mail me asking if my Antares design is supposed to be related to the Akira, despite the original sketch pre-dating ST:FC by decades.
Well, when you consider the relatively narrow angle from which the bussard domes are visible when the baffles are closed, plus the fact that the more you obstruct them, the less efficient they become, I don't think wrapping them further around the front is the way to go. As I said earlier, that's actually the first thing I tried, but the curvature difference between the baffles and the bulbous section of the nacelle body makes them look very extraneous in the open position, like they should blend into the curvature of the hull but don't. Arguably, the flower petal design is no less disharmonious with the ship's lines, but I like the way it looks for other reasons. Still, one aspect of the current design that I'm not wild about is the way they look when they're closed. I'm finding the pattern of dots created by the holes in the baffles to be visually distracting. Intuitively, I feel like the baffles need to have openings of some kind to accommodate the function of the bussard collectors, but maybe I can come up with something that looks less like a Twister game board got wrapped around them. Maybe a small series of louvered slots... Got an email from Aridas this morning in which he clarifies that if the Kiaga was inspired by anything it was the Akyazi class, not the Akira.
I like them. And don't like any of the proposed alternatives. So by all means keep them as they are. I'm not sure how much value they'd have in the way of stealth, though. Light speed emissions wouldn't give a ship away beyond a relatively close range, unless it stayed in the same place for awhile. Given how fast and how far Trek ships go, even at impulse speeds, any radiation that's not FTL would be pretty ineffectual for tracking a ship. I remember the Picard Maneuver was based on this. I know you're just being consistent with aridas' own design, and this is really more a question for him, I guess. And I'm really tired and not thinking straight, so there's a good chance I'm missing something obvious. Marian
I actually wondered if louvered slots would look better as there's something about the circles that make the nacelles look like giant blow torches. How about star shaped baffles that sit right on the cap itself which rotates to totally close off the scoop for silent running? It'd certainly be somewhat less obtrusive than the current concept, though it may look somewhat distracting in animation with the baffles bisecting the bussard's inner rotating animation.
Personally, I like the baffles the way you've designed them. Remember the main antenna on NASA's Apollo service module? It was pretty spindly, yet held up just fine - granted, not at warp speed!
Crazy idea #4 - what if the cap was coated with a substance that turns opaque when you run a current through it? That way all you need to do is swap out the texture for a dull bronzey or coppery finish and job done. Easy.
As very quick and very dirty suggestion... How about this: (If properly modeled ) the bussard-collectors could still work but are even more invisible from the side, top and bottom...
Latest and greatest: I definitely like this look better in the closed configuration. It's not as busy and looks a lot less like a blow torch nozzle. I left the original versions in place on the port nacelle to more easily compare them in these renderings. I also tinkered around some last night with different articulation schemes for the baffles. I looked at having them retract into the nacelle body, but there are curvature issues that make that problematic unless I use more than three segments. It could be done, but I think it would wind up to be too mechanically complex to the point where it's unlikely anyone would bother to actually build it that way. That's why I'm sticking with the hinge so far, because it's the simplest, most expedient way I can think of to get the baffles out of the way when you need to open those bussard collectors to full throttle. Any other opinions?
When I first mentioned the idea of louvered slots yesterday, this is almost exactly what I had in mind, but I got to thinking that having the slots running perpendicular to the blades in the bussard collector would result in a crosshatch pattern, which I didn't think would be much of an improvement over the polka dots. That's why I decided to make the slots parallel to the blades, and although I haven't tested this yet, I suspect it will look more dramatic when animated.
I prefer the circles, mainly because they remind me of the perforated brass used for the communicators. If you reduced the hole-size by one-third, increased their number, and give it a dull brass material, it would look like something they would have made for Phase II. If you prefer the slotted design (which I also love,) I'd recommend the same procedure on them as well. I know that the lack bare metal is due to the use of sensor-scattering paint, but it looks very dull. Not dull enough to make this ugly, but it soaks some of the luster. Surely aridas can make one more concession for art's sake.