DF's points are exactly why it's a good idea (with the inexpensive available of at least the BASIC tools) to do a 3D model of the design you've got in mind. There are lots of inexpensive, or even FREE, tools out there these days. Note - I did not just say "no one should do 2d drawings." Nor did I say that "2D drawings aren't the best starting point." I'm just saying... unless you've got it in 3D, you simply can't say for sure how it looks from every angle, and you MIGHT end up with two different angles which are actually contradictory, but which you THINK work together. (I discovered that with Aridas Sofia's "Ariel Class Shuttlecarrier" and when I made my model of that, I had to make some compromises... so neither of the main views he provided (top or port) look EXACTLY like his did, but they do capture the intent.) Don't bother to make your 3D model look "pretty." Don't worry about texturing, unless you want to see how textures look from different perspectives. I WOULD use this to lay out guide lines for window placement (ensuring that the windows actually fall all onto commonsame "deck planes"... something that lots of post-TNG-era ships fail miserably at!) Treat it as a tool, if you wish... don't worry about getting all the fine detail in place... but use it to work out shapes, forms, relationships. Then, you can go right back to 2D work, if that's your preferred medium. Seriously, Adam... give it a shot. Just try "sketchup" if you like... or try the now-free "Truespace" if you want something a bit more polished... or try Blender. Hell, just go with foamcore and paper-mache (and a decent set of magic markers) if that's all you're up to. But trust me... until you've made a decent-sized, reasonably-accurately-shaped physical model, you just don't know how it's going to look.
Oh, obviously... it isn't like the ships he prefers, and has a few features he feels are vaguely familiar... so it's a copy. I learned that side of the argument YEARS ago...
Ok, DF i feel like I am back in art school every time I read one of your posts . I am well aware of the sketch I posted being off. Like I said it was done really quick to just get the idea I across, not to layout all the final dimensions. I wish I have time to build a physical model but I don't. That being said I whipped this up, it needs some polish to figure out all the ins and outs so please I am not looking for an art lesson or suggestions, I am just letting you all know as I go along this is the direction I am heading in. It's a large file so here is a link http://img856.imageshack.us/i/ortho1.jpg/
Looking great! And I totally agree - too much time is being spent on the negatives instead of focusing on the positive aspects of these designs. Keep up the nice work IHL!
That looks really nice. But I'd like to point out that the turbolifts have to travel from the saucer, all the way around and down to the keel to get into the secondary hull. Wouldn't that be time consuming? They'd have to use inter-ship transporters for emergencies, unless those transporters are using inertial dampeners of their own and really move.
My guess is that when the two halves are connected, there are turbolift access points on both sides of the ring so that they don't have to go all the way down to the bottom of the ship.
The turbolifts aren't a problem if the cars are spheres, not cylinders. Shaft placement couldn't be more complicated than the Obereth, Akira, Miranda, Steamrunner, etc.
Hi Adam, Please forgive a couple of questions - I don't pipe up very often. I realise this idea may be a little late, and that someone may have suggested it before. But with this thread now going at over 100 pages, I may have missed it. Humblest apologies, if so. First, does this Enterprise have a battle bridge? I ask after having just seen the side ortho. Great idea for giving the saucer section a 25th-century annular warp drive btw. Linear warp drive and nacelles for the stardrive section, of course. But that part of the ship would need a command centre in separated mode - hence a battle bridge. And this leads me to my second question. One of the key points of having a battle bridge would be rapid access to it from the main bridge when at red alert. The Enterprise-D had its direct point-to-point turbolift to get there. Wouldn't it be helpful to have a saucer-ventral to stardrive-dorsal interconnect when in docked mode - thereby permitting fast movement from one section to the other? Of course, this could be done via the saucer's side struts/annular warp nacelle, but it would be a very roundabout way to get from the top of the saucer to a protected area, deep within the lower hull - especially in a critical situation where time may be of the essence. Perhaps there could be a turbolift interconnect between the two sections - for main intraship shafts, as well as for the battle bridge lift - along the centre line as viewed fore to aft? This could then retract into one hull or the other (or even split halfway perhaps?) as part of the saucer-sep process. We saw the D's latches retract in 'Encounter at Farpoint'. So why not a retractable turboshaft assembly for the Enterprise F? Then the side struts supporting the saucer could be said to be solely the ring nacelle for the annular warp drive, and no turboshafts need go through them at all. I realise that someone may have suggested intraship beaming as the norm for this class of ship by now. That may be fine for normal ship operations. But I'm not sure I'd want to get to the battle bridge that way if we're about to an emergency saucer sep. Especially if main saucer power had been compromised already - in a surprise attack, or something like that. So how about an extendable shaft? Normally retracted and invisible. But extended and used only to get from saucer to stardrive section for access to the battle bridge from the main bridge, and only when at red alert? Risky - to send command crew through a potentially vulnerable shaft through open space in a battle situation. It's an express elevator though, and the amount of time they'd be at risk would be minimal. Then the shaft could be retracted once the transfer of crew is complete, and before the saucer sep begins. And you definitely wouldn't spoil the lines of the ship at all, if it's usually invisible. Just my twopennyworth to put up for discussion. My compliments on an excellent innovation on the classic Federation starship layout btw - similar yet different. Producing interesting discussion and comment-a-plenty. I like to think Captain Jeffries is smiling down from on high. Looking forward to seeing more images as time passes. Thanks for updating so frequently, and many congratulations on your win in the competition. All the best, Steve 'misteravid'
It is NOT a negative to give advice on how to get a positive... DF's advice, and my follow up, are not something that we just came up with. And Adam, making a "mockup" is not that difficult... it's REALLY not. You say you don't have time, but with an x-acto knife, some foamcore board and cardboard, and some markers, you can make a "mockup" model is almost NO time. This is what the real movie-makers do, in fact. This isn't because "it's in the contract," it's because IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO DO IT. Nobody's saying you need to do something "museum quality." JUST get the shapes right. You can do it in a computer faster and more easily than you can in physical form, if you have the tools and the knowledge of how to use them. But it's not really hard to cut foam-core and bend cardboard and so forth, is it? HELL, just use an old cereal box... I did that back when I was a kid, and made phasers and so forth that way. Elmer's Glue and magic markers and so forth... and no cost beyond that except for wear and tear on mom's favorite scissors! I did an X-Wing, a TIE Fighter... a phaser and communicator... all from nothing but cardboard and markers and glue. Of course, we all have our prejudices, and I'm guessing that you're a 2D-artist by disposition and have a hard time thinking in other terms. You know... "if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail?" Making this sort of suggestion is NOT a "negative." It's the best advice you're likely to get... supported by the fact that all designs, throughout recorded history, have gotten the "mockup" treatment prior to being constructed. From the ramps up to Masada by the Romans, to every naval vessel and aircraft and spacecraft ever made, to every skyscraper, to every bit of nanotechnology... even every new molecule designed by a chemist. ALL get models made. NONE ever get produced without being "prototyped" as a basic, simplified model. Movie guys and TV guys do this... not just with starships but with sets, with props... and not just with Scifi but with ALL genres.
Well, the Grissom, I always assumed, was mostly unmanned. I always thought that this type of ship was almost like a tugboat, carrying along some payload... the "tug" is the little saucer and plate on top... the payload is this massive, underslung sensor pod, all remotely operated from the "tug" section. Okay, I know that TNG played fast and loose with that, but from what we saw in TSFS, this was certainly practical. We see no indication that the ship is anything more than that, nor that there is any crew beyond the command crew. And it does sort of make J.T. Esteban, seem a BIT less incompetent if you assume that you're seeing half of the crew of his entire command on the bridge when Kruge showed up! And we KNOW that the "torpedo pod" on the Reliant was intended to be the same way... an unmanned area, only accessible through convoluted means and only then for emergency repairs or inspections or so forth. As for the Akira and Steamrunner... I don't see the issue with the Steamrunner in any fashion. Only that little aft-mounted pod is going to be hard to get into... and again, who says that that would be populated? .. and the Akira's even easier to get around, since we're only talking about horizontal and vertical tubes, unless you're talking about the nacelles, right?
OK first off this is getting out of control. Cary I meant no disrespect to you nor DH. And when I look back I can see why, I sure worded my post pretty crappy. I apologize. Now as for the art as of late, I am literally doing this stuff on the fly in my free time which is not much. So I know things are not perfect. Cary when I say I don't have time I mean it. I work 8-12 a day up to 6 days a week, as an artist, a sculptor so I know a thing or 2 about working in 3D. I also have a degree in industrial design so a mock up is nothing new to me I do them all the time at work. All I am saying is I cannot put all my spare time into it,I know it doesn't take long but I think its kinda like the Starbucks employee who doesn't want to see a cup of coffee when he gets home. The last thing I want is to come home most days and do the same thing for 4-5 hours till bed. I. So again I didn't mean to step on any toes. This is supposed to be fun at this point but I need to stop racing Cryptic to get something done, and it's starting to get to me I guess. Please no hard feelings, DH, Cary I value your opinions and as someone who has been coming to the BBS for a LONG time, I should have known better than to word a post that came out like the way I did it. Sorry guys.
No offense taken, or hopefully given. I was really more piqued by bobafett's comment, really... inferring that "constructive comments" shouldn't be permitted, and only "praise" is permissable. (sigh) I know this is only a hobby. There's little reason to "race" Cryptic, anyway... the advice DF gave, and which I concurred with, was just to save grief. You made comments about having trouble with various views, after all... and I'm a big fan of doing whatever is necessary to eliminate trouble, ya know? But it's your "hobby" effort... nobody else's. The guys at Cryptic are doing it for money, and are on a (months-long, granted) deadline. You can keep plinking on this for years... and won't lose one penny for missing a deadline! I guess it's just surprising to me that you're thinking about this a lot, obviously, and still devoting a lot of time to the design concept, but are missing what, to me, is always one of the first steps you do in any project. I saw your little "claymation" version in a picture a long time ago, I think... all I'm saying is that, to get it RIGHT, you should do the same thing on a larger scale. But in the end... Cryptic will do their own thing anyway... so I guess it doesn't matter, huh?
Not bad. *digs to find his credit card* Edit: My one critique of their version is that the top of the saucer looks too much like the -E, but it's still early in the ball game.