A new B5 series on the horizon?

[RJDiogenes]

LOTR was definitely weak, but I found Crusade to be very good and think it would have been another classic if it had run its full course. I also think there's plenty of room for other epic storylines in that universe. As pivotal as one event might be, it's not all of human history (which I think was the point of "Deconstruction Of Falling Stars"). Remember, the Shadow-Vorlon War wasn't even all of Babylon 5; the Civil War was a major part of the series as well.

 

[shivkala]

I definitely have a soft-spot for Crusade and I have hoped for a while we would see some sort of continuation of that story. Most of the episodes we got were decent to really good, I loved the characters, thought they had some great actors (Daniel Dae-Kim was one of the reasons I got into Lost and Crusade, along with Office Space taught me that Gary Cole is awesome), I loved the Excalibur, and I was excited to find out, once JMS released those scripts in 2001, what direction the show was going to take (a very logical one, in my opinion, and a lot more interesting that the direction the show started out in).

If TNT hadn't canned it and had Crusade been allowed to complete its story, I think it would have been held in the same esteem as Babylon 5. We would have laughed over some of the missteps they made in the first season, but overall, I think we would have loved it.

Legends of the Rangers, however, I thought missed the point of Babylon 5. B5 was about us going up against older races which had influenced us and stood up to them. It was the tale of children growing up, facing their parents, and saying, "You've done your job, now let us have our shot." Legends of the Rangers, at least to me, was kind of having the cranky grandparents (or maybe uncles/aunts) come in and say, "We hated your parents, but we think you're useless too, now listen to me..."

As RJDiogenes said, the B5 story was more than just about the Shadows, but the Civil Wars (Earth and the Minbari), as well as the problems in season 5 were the growing pains that happen when you move out of your parents house, and struggle to make it on your own. They were the mistakes you have to make in order to understand who you are and what you want.

 

[Kegg]

Rangers, however, I thought missed the point of Babylon 5. B5 was about us going up against older races which had influenced us and stood up to them. It was the tale of children growing up, facing their parents, and saying, "You've done your job, now let us have our shot." Legends of the Rangers, at least to me, was kind of having the cranky grandparents (or maybe uncles/aunts) come in and say, "We hated your parents, but we think you're useless too, now listen to me..."

Said it better than me.

The reason I think JMS woud probably be better suited to a reboot is that even though the kids move out from under their parents, he still wants to go back to inviting more siblings. A B5 series without any eldritch civilizations hanging around in the corners could be great - some of the best stuff of the original show had nothing to do with Vorlons and Shadows, except tangentially. Sure, the Shadows play a role in the Centauri-Narn conflict as the Mephistopheles condemning Londo Mollari's actions, but it's the bitterness of Narn resentment and Centauri imperialism that makes that one of the show's strongest arcs.

But if JMS wants to keep telling Vorlon-type stories, probably best to talk about the Shadows then run into the Darkness or the Foot or whomever.

To be fair, as Reverend hints, we don't know where the series might have gone with this Hand business. It's certainly possible they'd have been just a repeat of the Shadows (they seemed to want to sell themselves as such in-story), but surely it's just as possible something far more original was going on? The Hand Servitor made some "tremble-before-us" claims but without an actual series who can tell whether it's the truth or merely a Wizard of Oz situation?

Unless JMS has actually said the Hand was going to be a cop-out, the idea they were legit seems far more plausible judging from the telefilm. Clearly their attacks have been convincing enough to win over G'Kar and the Minbari, after all.

But yes, regardless of intent they're presented as cut-rate Shadows and thus are cut-rate Shadows. 'What might have been' are sad words, and dead ones.

 

[Jan]

Unless JMS has actually said the Hand was going to be a cop-out, the idea they were legit seems far more plausible judging from the telefilm.

B5 Movie script book:

Q: Why was it said that the Hand are more ancient and more powerful than the Shadows?

JMS: That's what they said but that doesn't mean it would ultimately be true.

Jan

 

[shivkala]

'What might have been' are sad words, and dead ones.

True, and made all the sadder by the fact that Crusade could have been great.

Spoiler: unfilmed episode scripts

The idea of exploring the use of Shadow-tech, to me, is such a great premise. We know, based on the Civil War, that Earthgov had been more than just experimenting with it, they outfitted ships with the technology. Why would they just use it on ships, wouldn't they have tried it out on smaller subjects first?

And what about the other races? What did they do with the tech? The books went into this a little bit, as did A Call to Arms, and with the Drakh-plague, Crusade itself.

And then there are the Technomages. Possibly proof that using Shadow-tech isn't necessarily a bad thing.

This idea had so much merit and still does. "Infection" in the first season of B5 set-up how people were digging up ancient tech and experimenting with it. The idea has only been visited in tiny bits so far.

To me, it's infinitely more interesting than another all-powerful race (or one that claims to be. In fact, the Vorlons and Shadows both tried that. Even the Minbari believed the Shadow ships to be unbeatable. And the Vorlons, Hell, they pretended to be celestial beings. So what if they Hand were less powerful than they claimed to be, we've still been down that road.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

'What might have been' are sad words, and dead ones.

True, and made all the sadder by the fact that Crusade could have been great.

Spoiler: unfilmed episode scripts

The idea of exploring the use of Shadow-tech, to me, is such a great premise. We know, based on the Civil War, that Earthgov had been more than just experimenting with it, they outfitted ships with the technology. Why would they just use it on ships, wouldn't they have tried it out on smaller subjects first?

And what about the other races? What did they do with the tech? The books went into this a little bit, as did A Call to Arms, and with the Drakh-plague, Crusade itself.

And then there are the Technomages. Possibly proof that using Shadow-tech isn't necessarily a bad thing.

This idea had so much merit and still does. "Infection" in the first season of B5 set-up how people were digging up ancient tech and experimenting with it. The idea has only been visited in tiny bits so far.

To me, it's infinitely more interesting than another all-powerful race (or one that claims to be. In fact, the Vorlons and Shadows both tried that. Even the Minbari believed the Shadow ships to be unbeatable. And the Vorlons, Hell, they pretended to be celestial beings. So what if they Hand were less powerful than they claimed to be, we've still been down that road.

While Kegg's words are indeed wise, I couldn't resist dragging out What Might Have Been one more time:

Spoiler: As above

Why not see the promise of Crusade in LotR? Who's to say the Hand wouldn't have been revealed to be in part exactly what you describe - members of familiar races experimenting with left-over Shadow tech? Conspiracies in deciphering what the First Ones left behind and adapting it for further use? . Maybe, and this is from someone who knows squat all about the thinking behind either () Legend of the Rangers was to be a second attempt at the idea of Crusade? - they are set in the same timeframe...

Forgive me; I know this is pointless speculation. I'm just inclined to be generous to Legend of the Rangers in the absence of any evidence for its future direction (of course, maybe that is indeed unforgivable ).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I was really digging Crusade, but I had a feeling early on that it was too cool (in other words, too much geek heaven) to last. I would like to see that arc completed, even with a suddenly different cast, or restarted with a new cast and then completed. Not holding my breath though.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I think JMS stated that we wouldn't probably see the "Telepath War" depicted in any live action medium.

That's because a battle between telepaths would probably look something like this:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWgg20IqibM[/yt]

Wow, do you really have no faith in actors' ability to convey the idea of psychic warfare? Not even willing to let them try? Talented actors (with good writing) could make the Telepath War very real. Just because we can't see something doesn't mean it can't be conveyed in a viscerally convincing manner.

Here's a quick example of an acting assignment: imagine the oxygen has just been drained from the room and you're suffocating. Now convince the audience. Don't you think an actor could make that look real, even though you can't actually see the oxygen's presence or absence?

Anyway, JMS stole the whole Psi Corps idea from Alfred Bester so he hardly owns the copyright on it. Someone else could come along and do the same idea - it would be cool to see them try.

Which is the only way it would happen anyway. I'm not holding my breath waiting for anything else from B5, that's for sure.

 

[shivkala]

While Kegg's words are indeed wise, I couldn't resist dragging out What Might Have Been one more time:

Spoiler: As above

Why not see the promise of Crusade in LotR? Who's to say the Hand wouldn't have been revealed to be in part exactly what you describe - members of familiar races experimenting with left-over Shadow tech? Conspiracies in deciphering what the First Ones left behind and adapting it for further use? . Maybe, and this is from someone who knows squat all about the thinking behind either () Legend of the Rangers was to be a second attempt at the idea of Crusade? - they are set in the same timeframe...

Forgive me; I know this is pointless speculation. I'm just inclined to be generous to Legend of the Rangers in the absence of any evidence for its future direction (of course, maybe that is indeed unforgivable ).

Okay, you've got a point. The movie DVD boxset and Legends of the Rangers are the last two B5 purchases I have to make. Once I get around to it, I'll watch Legends of the Rangers with your idea in mind and see if that alters my opinion.

I'll still think the firing room idea is stupid though. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

 

[JD]

I was really digging Crusade, but I had a feeling early on that it was too cool (in other words, too much geek heaven) to last. I would like to see that arc completed, even with a suddenly different cast, or restarted with a new cast and then completed. Not holding my breath though.

I'm still shocked there wasn't at least some kind of reference to what happened with the stuff from Crusade in The Lost Tales. I've never actually watched Crusade, but I am familiar enough to recognize stuff from it. I loved B5, but the stores I got the seasons from never had Crusade and I never got around to ordering it from Amazon.

 

[Sindatur]

While Kegg's words are indeed wise, I couldn't resist dragging out What Might Have Been one more time:

Spoiler: As above

Why not see the promise of Crusade in LotR? Who's to say the Hand wouldn't have been revealed to be in part exactly what you describe - members of familiar races experimenting with left-over Shadow tech? Conspiracies in deciphering what the First Ones left behind and adapting it for further use? . Maybe, and this is from someone who knows squat all about the thinking behind either () Legend of the Rangers was to be a second attempt at the idea of Crusade? - they are set in the same timeframe...

Forgive me; I know this is pointless speculation. I'm just inclined to be generous to Legend of the Rangers in the absence of any evidence for its future direction (of course, maybe that is indeed unforgivable ).

Okay, you've got a point. The movie DVD boxset and Legends of the Rangers are the last two B5 purchases I have to make. Once I get around to it, I'll watch Legends of the Rangers with your idea in mind and see if that alters my opinion.

I'll still think the firing room idea is stupid though. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

The Weapons System was universally hated, even by those of us who give the movie slack and think of what coulda been.

Crusade, especially considering the later unfilmed scripts would have grown to awesomeness, IMHO. TNT killed before it was even aired. Once they got it, they decided they didn't want it, and sabotaged it, so the filmed episodes were compromised, but, it wasn't even based upon ratings of the actual show. It was based upon projections from B5 proper S5 and reruns.

Admiral Young, not so much that JMS isn't interested in books. Someone has to be willing to pay the licensing fee (to WB?) and then commission the books (Pay the Authors). I'm sure if that was arranged, and JMS was compensated for it, he would write outlines for a series or some one-offs.

 

[Neroon]

I'll still think the firing room idea is stupid though. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

The Weapons System was universally hated, even by those of us who give the movie slack and think of what coulda been.

The portrayal of the firing system had problems, perhaps. The IDEA however, had more than just merit. Might want to read this attachment first and then revisit the idea. The article was posted several years ago but still not long after Legend aired.

 

[Reverend]

As for LotR; that had even less of a chance. All we got was some rumblings of some new (or possibly very old) race on the prowl who may or may not have been as scary as their servants like to claim (conspicuously loudly, one might say) and some scraps of hints of double dealing from within the rangers. We had about as much clue of B5's potential by the end of 'The Gathering', no?

You can’t seriously be suggesting that jms does not understand the importance of writing a strong, entertaining stand-alone pilot to a new series.

The problem with Legend of The Rangers was not that it was the first part of some epic tail that we (the studio and network) should accept on faith would become another classic. It wasn’t because of dodgy scheduling or low budget. It was because it was unimaginative and frankly not very well written.

Assuming that jms would have wanted the series to have been picked up – and since by then he was both an experienced executive producer and television writer – he would have created the best standalone story he was capable of. If it wasn’t then why bother making it.

It was not very good. Which does at least lend credulity to the suggestion that he’s told his B5 story and doesn’t have a lot left in the tank – as far as Babylon 5 goes. Why is that such a difficult idea to entertain. It doesn’t mean he is talentless, it doesn’t mean he’s washed up as a writer, it only means he’s told that particular story, sold the scripts and a few behind the scenes do-da’s and it’s possibly time to move on.

Oh I agree. As a standalone story and a movie in general it wasn't very good (I liked the chemistry between the two male leads, but that was about it.)

Thing is though, I wasn't making a point on quality but responding to the claim that JMS has run out of ideas, as evidenced by the failure of Crusade, LotR and I suppose Lost Tales too. While yes, I totally agree, LotR wasn't bad because JMS was holding back some secret, genius story point that'd make everything great, it was bad because (from what I gather) it was rushed and under budgeted, I don't think for one second that the pilot was intended to lay all the show's cards on the table.

As with 'The Gathering', the intent appears to have been to establish the new characters, the new setting and tell a relatively contained adventure story that can act as a juming off point for a much wider story. Of course we con only speculate where the story might have gone from there, but I think it's a fair bet that The Hand would turn out to be something other than advertised. I mean if they were just "'The Shadows Mk.2" then I can't see JMS just basically saying so right from the offset. It smelt more like a bait and switch to me. Also, always remember "No one here is exactly what he appears."

Unless JMS has actually said the Hand was going to be a cop-out, the idea they were legit seems far more plausible judging from the telefilm.

B5 Movie script book:

Q: Why was it said that the Hand are more ancient and more powerful than the Shadows?

JMS: That's what they said but that doesn't mean it would ultimately be true.

Jan

Thanks Jan, I knew I'd read something like that somewhere but was too lazy to go look it up.

I think JMS stated that we wouldn't probably see the "Telepath War" depicted in any live action medium.

That's because a battle between telepaths would probably look something like this:

Wow, do you really have no faith in actors' ability to convey the idea of psychic warfare? Not even willing to let them try? Talented actors (with good writing) could make the Telepath War very real. Just because we can't see something doesn't mean it can't be conveyed in a viscerally convincing manner.

Here's a quick example of an acting assignment: imagine the oxygen has just been drained from the room and you're suffocating. Now convince the audience. Don't you think an actor could make that look real, even though you can't actually see the oxygen's presence or absence?

Anyway, JMS stole the whole Psi Corps idea from Alfred Bester so he hardly owns the copyright on it. Someone else could come along and do the same idea - it would be cool to see them try.

Which is the only way it would happen anyway. I'm not holding my breath waiting for anything else from B5, that's for sure.

That Big Train clip (love that show btw) is probably a fairly accurate idea of what a "psi battle" might look like...from the *outside*. From within (where one assumes the "camera" would be) it'd be a whole lot more interesting.

The Psi Corps books went into some detail about how these psi battles are perceived by telepathes. If I remember this right, the natural instinct of an untrained teep is to allow their brain to interpret them as solid objects. Like for example seeing a sword or onrushing train and defending oneself with an imaginary shield or suit of armour or simply jumping out of it's path. The trained teeps however are taught that this kind of approach is a trap because nothing in it is real and that sword can turn into a cloud of nerve toxin or the train into tsunami and the combatants can get caught up in the images and forget that none of it is real. What we saw in 'The Corps is Mother...' with the scanning and blocking training is pretty much what the book describes the more highly trained teeps are taught to perceive. Stripping away the illusion imposed by a brain rooted in the real world and reduce everything to it's most basic level; shapeless and insubstantial.

As to how it might be shown on film...well the first approach is pretty straight forward. All you need is some props, a green screen and a copy of Inception. The second one is more abstract and would have to essentially be as exciting a special effects display as the artists can come up with. Not easy, but certainly not impossible.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

That's because a battle between telepaths would probably look something like this:

Wow, do you really have no faith in actors' ability to convey the idea of psychic warfare? Not even willing to let them try? Talented actors (with good writing) could make the Telepath War very real. Just because we can't see something doesn't mean it can't be conveyed in a viscerally convincing manner.

Here's a quick example of an acting assignment: imagine the oxygen has just been drained from the room and you're suffocating. Now convince the audience. Don't you think an actor could make that look real, even though you can't actually see the oxygen's presence or absence?

Anyway, JMS stole the whole Psi Corps idea from Alfred Bester so he hardly owns the copyright on it. Someone else could come along and do the same idea - it would be cool to see them try.

Which is the only way it would happen anyway. I'm not holding my breath waiting for anything else from B5, that's for sure.

That Big Train clip (love that show btw) is probably a fairly accurate idea of what a "psi battle" might look like...from the *outside*. From within (where one assumes the "camera" would be) it'd be a whole lot more interesting.

The Psi Corps books went into some detail about how these psi battles are perceived by telepathes. If I remember this right, the natural instinct of an untrained teep is to allow their brain to interpret them as solid objects. Like for example seeing a sword or onrushing train and defending oneself with an imaginary shield or suit of armour or simply jumping out of it's path. The trained teeps however are taught that this kind of approach is a trap because nothing in it is real and that sword can turn into a cloud of nerve toxin or the train into tsunami and the combatants can get caught up in the images and forget that none of it is real. What we saw in 'The Corps is Mother...' with the scanning and blocking training is pretty much what the book describes the more highly trained teeps are taught to perceive. Stripping away the illusion imposed by a brain rooted in the real world and reduce everything to it's most basic level; shapeless and insubstantial.

As to how it might be shown on film...well the first approach is pretty straight forward. All you need is some props, a green screen and a copy of Inception. The second one is more abstract and would have to essentially be as exciting a special effects display as the artists can come up with. Not easy, but certainly not impossible.

Yeah, I was being flippant and Temis took me seriously (again). Good points there about the Psi Corps trilogy, which I need to read again. Psi battles could come off as looking incredibly cheesy, and the public would demand a level of CGI excellence akin to or beyond what we saw in "Heroes" and "X-Men". I'd still like the idea of Barry Davies providing commentary on a face-off (literally) as depicted in Scanners.

 

[Forbin]

Maybe a psi battle would look like "Sucker Punch" these days.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm still shocked there wasn't at least some kind of reference to what happened with the stuff from Crusade in The Lost Tales.

According to the wiki, Legend of the Rangers took place in 2265, whereas Crusade took place in 2267, which would be the in-universe explanation.

Evidently, the Sci-Fi Channel (now SyFy) tried to buy Crusade from TNT when it was canceled, but failed to do so. I would not be surprised if rights issues influenced the premise of LotR, but that is just speculation on my part.

As a footnote, here are some of JMS's notes regarding Crusade:

There is an archive of newsgroup postings by JMS at jmsnews.com. A quick search reveals that indeed, it is his understanding that TNT attempted to effectively sink the show for their own reasons, by misuse of the 'notes' process:
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-160 - Post on TNT's rational
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-709 - Some example notes

 

[JD]

I was talking about Voices in the Dark, which takes place in 2271.

 

[Aeon]

Evidently, the Sci-Fi Channel (now SyFy) tried to buy Crusade from TNT when it was canceled, but failed to do so.

Buying the show wouldn't have done any good since apparently Gary Cole already jumped the ship and wasn't going to return no matter what happened. Perhaps Jan can shed some light on this subject because that's all I've heard... and frankly I don't even know if that's true!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I was talking about Voices in the Dark, which takes place in 2271.

Oh, right. I guess I should have read more than L...T....

 

[Jan]

Buying the show wouldn't have done any good since apparently Gary Cole already jumped the ship and wasn't going to return no matter what happened. Perhaps Jan can shed some light on this subject because that's all I've heard... and frankly I don't even know if that's true!

I don't know anything definite about Gary Cole, really. It didn't seem that he was overly liked by some of the folks interviewed by Joe Nazzaro that were published in the 'Behind the Scenes' book. And it's known that

Spoiler: Captain Gideon

in the unfilmed scripts that Gideon was going to be shot and imprisoned in the Apocalypse box. BUT his voice was used for the box from the beginning so I'm not sure that's indicative of anything.

Hopefully we'll find out more whenever the rest of the Crusade script books come out...eventually.

Jan