Wouldn't Moriarty have known?

[Gary7]

Back in "Elementary, My Dear Data", the Professor Moriarty program is created by the computer based on a very simple input parameter given by Geordi. It's so simple in fact, that it's practically ludicrous a self-aware hologram was created in the first place. How easy it would be for anyone to utilize the ship's computer to create self-aware holodeck characters.

OK, one can assume that with a little luck of interplay from Data and Geordi, plus Data's presence in the hologram giving his direct interfacing with the computer to help provide "sentient" algorithms, that somehow Moriarty was created to become self-aware. Surely the computer keeps a log of everything. Even if Moriarty's consciousness came about with some random chance events, the record of what happened would be known and more self-aware holodeck beings could be created.

Anyway, moving forward with the idea for "Ship in a Bottle", Moriarty is clever enough to program a holodeck within a holodeck to outsmart Picard and Data. Funny how Data being what he is, couldn't tell the difference. It took a character flaw in Geordi for him to see it.

Alright, stepping over that oversight, we're left with Moriarty being clever but dumb enough to fall for Picard's trick of uncoupling the Heisenberg compensators as the means of transporting holodeck objects into reality.

He was that stupid?

A holodeck object is simulated. It has an exterior appearance, but internally it does not have structure. The holodeck beams are fabricating the object. To carry all of the interior details of an object is completely non-essential. A holodeck character does not have a digestive system! So... in effect, all you could really do is use the parameters of a holodeck character's appearance and apply that over a template of a previous human being transported to then create a corporeal being. But the huge hurdle here is the programming. You cannot translate a holodeck program into a biological brain!

Now, I can appreciate Moriarty not knowing this. He did have access to the vast library of the Enterprise, but he certainly couldn't transcribe it all to fit in his memory space. Thus... he could have overlooked the fact that corporeal existence has a vastly different foundation than a holodeck program.

What surprises me is that the crew of the Enterprise didn't realize this, especially Data. You'd figure the first thing out of his mouth would be this implicit obstacle, even before they "got to work" on trying to figure out how to beam an object off the holodeck. A simulated object is not recreated molecule for molecule of an actual object.


I still enjoyed the two episodes, and they're best seen as a pair rather than individually. But the premise did strain heavily on the fabric of plausibility. Not a favorite.

 

[Trekker4747]

As Moriarty stated in the episode, he felt that forcing the hand of the crew would spark inspiration.

The holodeck does use some replicated matter in the simulations (as Data says in EaF) but this likely only for the "more simple" things that are possible to replicate. Some descriptors of the holodeck simulation even says that the people in them are basically "meat puppets." So in some "theory" it should have been possible for Moriarty to leave the holodeck but once he would have his "meat" would no longer be under the computer's control and the empty meat shell would collapse. But I prefer to think that until physical interaction comes to play that Holodeck characters are "true holograms" and even when there's physical contact only the part being touched "feels real." Much like how The Doctor is portrayed in Voyager.

And there we have a rub where The Doctor acquired a device from the 29th century allowing him to exist outside of sickbay and the holodecks. Such a device probably would have suited Moriarty's needs and wishes but, of course, it's centuries (or maybe just decades) beyond what Picard and company had.

It's more odd to me that Moriarty was shocked to see the ship he was on to be "adrift in the heavens" when he enters 10-Forward, I would think during the events of "Elementary..." he would have learned what the Enterprise is and where it is.

 

[davejames]

Yeah, it did seem like Moriarty probably should have been more suspicious of Geordi's final transporter solution, considering how quickly he came up with it, and all the talk about how "completely impossible" it would be. Although it's possible he was simply caught up in the excitement of escaping the holodeck, or his massive ego got the best of him.

As to how Picard and Data could be fooled by Moriarty's ruse in the first place, well, it wouldn't be the first time in their travels that they've seen something impossible. For all they knew, there could have been some outside alien intelligence at work, infusing Moriarty's hologram with life, or they were passing through some strange area of space that was making it possible (although I'm surprised no one actually suggested either idea in the episode, considering it's the kind of thing they've encountered before).

One thing that does seem odd in retrospect, is that with all these great minds on the Enterprise, no one suggested VOY's simple and elegant solution of a "mobile holographic emitter." It's certainly no more far-fetched than any of the OTHER magical tech solutions they've come up with over the years, and it would have given Moriarty all he wanted.


Oh yeah, and for Moriarty's sake, here's hoping Barclay stored that mobile holodeck device somewhere in the saucer section, and not in the stardrive section which got blown to smithereens in Generations. Lol

 

[davejames]

BTW, the final scene in this episode might be one of my favorite ones ever:

"Who knows? Our reality may be very much like theirs. All this might just be an elaborate simulation running inside a little device sitting on someone's table."

The way Picard says it, and the knowing smiles on everyone's faces, couldn't have been more perfect.

 

[Hober Mallow]

BTW, the final scene in this episode might be one of my favorite ones ever:

"Who knows? Our reality may be very much like theirs. All this might just be an elaborate simulation running inside a little device sitting on someone's table."

The way Picard says it, and the knowing smiles on everyone's faces, couldn't have been more perfect.

I didn't get the joke until after I'd seen the episode as an adult.

 

[Timo]

How easy it would be for anyone to utilize the ship's computer to create self-aware holodeck characters.

And why should this be difficult?

All the holotainment our heroes consume appears to feature a number of intelligent holocharacters in addition to masses of insignificant extras. Something close to human intellect must be guiding the actions of these characters, although we don't know if it's close from "above" or "below", that is, if it has to reach or stoop to create the simulations. It's just that most of the entertainment hinges on these characters denying their holographic nature; Moriarty may not be any smarter or dumber than the average holo-foil, but he has the added characteristics of a) knowing he is artificial, and b) accessing some ship's resources that usually aren't available to a holocharacter. (Or to a holoprogram, as most programs probably run their simulations at a higher level than that of individual characters. Moriarty may be more clearly defined as an individual, associated with an individual holobody, than the average smart holocharacter is.)

Artificial intelligence in Trek universe is not rare nor amazing. Indeed, it appears it's something of a nuisance. When Kirk sees signs of it in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", he wants it eradicated. Only Noonian "Completely Cuckoo" Soong bothers to install it in androids. Yet this Felix guy churns out examples for personal entertainment...

...with all these great minds on the Enterprise, no one suggested VOY's simple and elegant solution of a "mobile holographic emitter." It's certainly no more far-fetched than any of the OTHER magical tech solutions they've come up with over the years, and it would have given Moriarty all he wanted.

Probably all of them were smart enough to stay quiet about it. Nobody really wanted to give Moriarty his freedom, after all. The guy (or whatever) was a menace!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[davejames]

I'm not sure how much of that was true "self-awareness" though. Much like Minuet, Moriarty could have simply been programmed by the holodeck to have a lot more knowledge of the ship and crew than usual, and to act like a 19th century character who DID have that knowledge.

If I were Picard, I would probably just assume that Moriarty was simply following through on his special new programming-- not that he had somehow become truly sentient, as the show wants us to believe.

 

[CoveTom]

How do we judge whether or not a holodeck program is truly self-aware? I could program my laptop to say "I am a laptop." That doesn't mean it actually understands what it is. Similarly, how do we know Moriarty is self-aware vs. just being programmed to act as though he were?

 

[Timo]

...And if we care, which way should we care?

If a computer program is clever enough to autonomously pretend it is self-aware, that's a much scarier prospect than if the program merely were another self-aware being! In that interpretation, not only can Moriarty fool us, he makes mockery of us by understanding what makes us tick much better than we ourselves do...

Really, Moriarty packed in that tabletop cube is a harmless entity not because he has been denied his access to the physical world, but because he has been denied it to the cybernetic. Inside that cube, "self-aware being" is the only thing he is. And that is a reassuring thought.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Unless we can prove that there are significant differences between Moriarty and Data beyond their composition, I would argue that Moriarty is at least as sentient as Data.

We can even throw in The Doctor if you like.

 

[scotpens]

Artificial intelligence in Trek universe is not rare nor amazing. Indeed, it appears it's something of a nuisance. When Kirk sees signs of it in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", he wants it eradicated.

Where did we see artificial intelligence in “Tomorrow is Yesterday”? The Enterprise’s computer hadn’t been made self-aware; it was just given a simulated “personality” with a seductive female voice.

 

[Timo]

...The same as with Moriarty (sans the voice, but Daniel Davis is pretty cute, too). Simulated personalities can be such an annoyance!

Comparing Moriarty and Data is probably fallacy, because Data is a single integrated package while Moriarty is just a fragment of a greater mind. Unless we assume Data isn't "firing on all thrusters" for us, either, and just projects a shard of his true mind when playing android.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WarpCore]

He was that stupid?

No, ignorant. And like you said, he has access to the entire ships memory to parse through and retain whatever information he deems valuable. Thus, he's willfully ignorant of many aspects of the ship.

So here you are watching a representation of a fictitious story that you know is fictitious but want to believe it's real so badly that you dissect it with other people. No insult meant by that at all. Now assume that's all Moriarty wanted not just for himself but more importantly for the Countess Bartholomew. Not for their existence to actually be real, but just to be granted a perception through which they can believe it is real. Moriarty can even just go along with the charade as long as the Countess believes. Sometimes people want to be fooled.

 

[Timo]

Remember also that Moriarty was created with specs. He is a creature designed from the outset to "defeat Data". There's a degree of "built-in villain" to him, something that must manifest as mental blocks, wedges and levers that nudge him towards certain behavioral patterns. It would be weird indeed if he didn't appear "obsessed" and indeed "monomaniacal"!

Certainly in "Ship in a Bottle" it would have gone against story logic if Moriarty attempted to cooperate with our heroes. The intellect at his disposal might have suggested several courses of action, but he would have been obligated to pick the most villainous one...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[davejames]

Unless we can prove that there are significant differences between Moriarty and Data beyond their composition, I would argue that Moriarty is at least as sentient as Data.

We can even throw in The Doctor if you like.

Yeah I suppose we can never be totally sure how much of Data's self-awareness is simply a function of his programming. But he at least possesses a positronic brain-- something that not only seems to be MUCH more elegant and sophisticated than the Enterprise computer, but which allows him to grow and adapt in ways which I don't think Moriarty is capable of.

Once the computer downloaded it's new program into Moriarty, that was that. There is no "brain" to allow him to grow any further or become more human over time.

 

[Timo]

I'd rather think that Data is the one to be pitied. His brain is of limited size; Moriarty and the like can benefit from brains the size of a starship's main computer - or several, depending on the degree of networking. There's no "Moriarty brain" to download into, there's just a fuzzy software entity that can be much more than sentient. Or much less, or both, just as it pleases.

One wonders... Are Moriarty and the Countess separate entities? Their plot-specific programming calls for them to be, but Moriarty might transcend the limitations of the programmed plot and choose to be more intimate with his love than would be physically possible for a humanoid...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[davejames]

His brain is of limited size, but it's still a brain. I never got the impression the Enterprise computer was anything more than just a huge, glorified hard drive.

The only time it came close to being anything more than that was when the nannites infected it in Evolution.

 

[Timo]

I never got the impression the Enterprise computer was anything more than just a huge, glorified hard drive.

Which is different from a brain how?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bones_McCoy21]

Nothing, our brains are "glorified memory banks" and so is the ships computer. I have 1 question, I recently watched an episode where Data was fighting a Borg and became angry(it's the one where the effects of sendin Hugh back are reveald) and he trys to recreate the situation on the holodeck. But to take the safe factor out so he could get hurt he needs the autor ization codes of 2 officers, him and Geordi. But some how Moriarty took the safty gaurd off. How the Hell did he do that?

 

[DonIago]

As Moriarty was created with the directive of being capable of defeating Data, presumably the computer gave Moriarty a level of holodeck access that Data would not have.

Of course, one wonders why the computer would be able to do this...but if we assume that, for instance, Captain Picard could unilaterally turn off the safeties...which he in fact does in First Cotnact, then it's simply a matter of giving Moriarty the same level of holodeck access that Picard has, as opposed to a level of unprecedented access.