Would Tuvok really have avoided visiting a planet over anti-Kolinahr protests

[Yistaan]

In Picard, Seven tests the changeling Tuvok and uses his supposed acceptance of a meeting point on a planet filled with anti-Kolinahr protests as proof that Tuvok has been replaced. Seven's right of course, but is the actual logic she uses to reach this conclusion sound? Since this delves heavily into the character of Tuvok, this probably is more appropriate for the Voyager forum but since this still is based on Picard S3 I put the thread here.

We're shown throughout Voyager that Tuvok has sometimes had a shaky belief in the Vulcan way as a young person that resurfaced on various occasions throughout Voyager. Kolinahr itself basically gets you to have emotion completely removed, so it's understanding why other species might find it controversial.

Even if Tuvok doesn't agree with any protests against Kolinahr, would he really be so petty as to avoid any planet that hosts such protests? Especially when the wellbeing of the Federation is at stake? I doubt it. Ironically avoiding such a meeting place over a petty disagreement is itself emotional and Tuvok would be the first to point that out.

I actually think the real Tuvok probably would have been fine with Seven's proposed meeting at an anti-Kolinahr site trusting her reasons for needing to meet there. Yet Seven uses this acceptance as proof that Tuvok is an impostor. While she's lucky that she happens to be right, I contend that the real Tuvok probably would have done the same thing and then be baffled when Seven falsely accuses him of being a changeling based on his acceptance of her proposed meeting place.

Thoughts?

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

I guess the idea is that the protesters make it unsafe for a Vulcan to be there, period? That doesn't really make sense for the evolved beings that supposedly make up the Federation, and also I don't think protesters could occupy an entire planet. That's some weak writing.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Kohlinahr-opposed planets fall under a Vulcan General Order 7?

I'd think if you wanted to have a secret meeting, you'd go to the least likely spot people who didn't know you well would look for you. Though, with all of space to search, pinpointing the location of one guy you're not currently able to actively track would be tough enough as it is.

 

[Yistaan]

I'd think if you wanted to have a secret meeting, you'd go to the least likely spot people who didn't know you well would look for you. Though, with all of space to search, pinpointing the location of one guy you're not currently able to actively track would be tough enough as it is.

You'd probably go to the planet one would least likely expect to find a Vulcan, which in theory could be the rationale for such a meeting place.

 

[The Wormhole]

I guess the idea is that the protesters make it unsafe for a Vulcan to be there, period?

That was my interpretation.

That's some weak writing.

Clearly we aren't supposed to think too hard about the scene other than "Ooh, Tuvok. Memberberries!:

 

[Nerys Myk]

Clearly we aren't supposed to think too hard

That sums up most of PIC3.

 

[fireproof78]

Vina: you'll feel it. That's what matters.

Qui-Gon: Feel. Don't think.

 

[FredH]

Vina: you'll feel it. That's what matters.

Qui-Gon: Feel. Don't think.

Yikes. Outside of fiction, that way lies mob violence. The Vulcans overdid it, but they’re basically not wrong…

 

[fireproof78]

Yikes. Outside of fiction, that way lies mob violence. The Vulcans overdid it, but they’re basically not wrong…

I prefer the Stoics to the Vulcans.
"To feel affection for people even when they make mistakes is uniquely human. You can do it, if you simply recognise: that they’re human too … And, above all, that they haven’t really hurt you. They haven’t diminished your ability to choose."

 

[FredH]

I prefer the Stoics to the Vulcans.
"To feel affection for people even when they make mistakes is uniquely human. You can do it, if you simply recognise: that they’re human too … And, above all, that they haven’t really hurt you. They haven’t diminished your ability to choose."

I’ve certainly no argument with that. Feeling compassion is a whole different category from, say, feeling I’ve got to get out of this space station by desperately opening the airlock, unhelmeted.

 

[fireproof78]

I’ve certainly no argument with that. Feeling compassion is a whole different category from, say, feeling I’ve got to get out of this space station by desperately opening the airlock, unhelmeted.

Eh, it's about intensity. The Vulcans say they experience so intense that the only way is to lock it under logic. Which is a far cry than what humans can be in terms of healthy. We experience intense emotions but need skills in how to identify, express them, and increase effectiveness of communicating emotions, not burying them.

 

[Oddish]

Tuvok is a trained and disciplined Vulcan, and will do what he determines to be the logical course of action. Assuming he hasn't mind-melded with a serial killer, been brain zapped by an alien weapon, fallen under the influence of an alien pitcher plant, or been handed a letter from his family.

 

[Frontis]

Tuvok is a trained and disciplined Vulcan, and will do what he determines to be the logical course of action. Assuming he hasn't mind-melded with a serial killer, been brain zapped by an alien weapon, fallen under the influence of an alien pitcher plant, or been handed a letter from his family.

Tuvok controls his emotions much more than Spock. Well, Spock was half human...

 

[Humanoid #77]

why would anyone be mad at Kohlinar in the first place? Kohlinar never did anything

 

[trekfan_1]

I don't think the scene was meant to have us think about the actual details too much. Just that Seven spotted something off with Tuvok. Unless it was obvious erroneous reasoning ( not in my opinion) , I'm ok with what was presented and just decided to " go with it"

 

[fireproof78]

why would anyone be mad at Kohlinar in the first place? Kohlinar never did anything

They rejected Spock.

Clearly there's some problems.

But, we also got Tuvok.

Yeah, their output is inconsistent.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

why would anyone be mad at Kohlinar in the first place? Kohlinar never did anything

And only a small fraction of Vulcans even bother to attain kolinahr in the first place. So it's not like they're all over the place!

Those few who DO attain kolinahr are surely isolated from the rest of society, so the general population should be unaware that kolinahr even exists at all.

 

[The Wormhole]

Those few who DO attain kolinahr are surely isolated from the rest of society, so the general population should be unaware that kolinahr even exists at all.

Eh? That's not how it's been depicted in the franchise at all. While it's true only a small percentage of Vulcans attain Kolinahr, everyone knows it exists. Indeed, a common issue is that many enter the program most wash-out before they attain it. And once you wash out, you can't reenter. Like Tuvok, who had to back out because his ponn farr hit a few years into his studies.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

So he wanted to achieve it, and didn't get to. Presumably, he doesn't hold a grudge now ("They kicked me out, so now I hate the very idea.")

He might be unfairly targeted ("You support it, even tried to attain it. You're one of them.") or alternately, they might try to recruit him ("Look what they did to you. Kicked you out because of your biology. Help us fight them!") Either way, he'd want to stay out of the whole thing.

 

[Yistaan]

So he wanted to achieve it, and didn't get to. Presumably, he doesn't hold a grudge now ("They kicked me out, so now I hate the very idea.")

He might be unfairly targeted ("You support it, even tried to attain it. You're one of them.") or alternately, they might try to recruit him ("Look what they did to you. Kicked you out because of your biology. Help us fight them!") Either way, he'd want to stay out of the whole thing.

Those are minor concerns if the wellbeing of the Fed is at stake. Tuvok went through worse infiltrating the Maquis in Voyager's premiere.