Women and positons of power in TOS

[borgboy]

I find it hard to believe that in the utopian 23rd century of Star Trek there would be a sexist rule not allowing women to be captians of starships. I think that concept was not very well thought out as it clashes with the basic message of equality that is so important in ST.
Was this ever addressed in interviews with Roddenberry or explored in any of the novels? I find trying to reconcile this with the rest of ST difficult. Even if the sexist era of the 60's wouldn't allow a female captain on screen it is shocking to me that it was established that here wern't any female captains off screen. I know Roddenberry wanted the fabulous Majel Barrett as Number One the first officer but TPTB vetoed him on it. Did the original series show any other female first officers besides Number One?
Did original Trek have any female admirals ( could you become an admiral without captaining a star ship? Could women hold the rank of captain without the role of starhip captian?)? I'm pretty sure there was a female admiral in the first ST movie unless I'm remebereing wrongly.
I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about this.

 

[Shatmandu]

Was this ever addressed in interviews with Roddenberry or explored in any of the novels?

He said it was a shortsighted mistake. Keep in mind, though: you had to pick your battles. They couldn't knock over every domino.

In real life, he was a bit of a pig when it came to women, from what I gather.

"Star Trek" isn't about what he was but rather what he (and the other producers and writers) aspired for us to be.

Joe, poetic

 

[Wingsley]

Also keep in mind that TOS was on NBC in prime time from 1966-69. Not an era known for flattering depictions of women in positions of authority.

That having been said: when TNG came along, Mr. Roddenberry was criticized for not doing a better job.

 

[borgboy]

I really didn't mean any insult to Roddenberry. I gave him credit for Number One, trying to have a female first officer then was very progressive.
That said, has there ever been any explanation for the logic of female officers in go go boots and mini dresses? Other than the sex appeal that is.
Random odd thought, Dark Shadows that ran between 1966-1971 on daytime television had lots of strong women, most notably Grayson Hall as a doctor and brilliant scientist who regularly faced down evil witches and warlocks, and there was also the fabulous Angelique, a powerful amoral witch who was a far cry from the domesticated magic girls of Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie. Not really on topic but it is an interesting comparison given they were on at the same time.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The only person who ever said onscreen that women couldn't be starship captains was Janice Lester, and she was 1) batshit insane, and 2) jealous as all hell.

So nothing she said can, or should, be taken at face value.

 

[borgboy]

Interesting theory that Jancie was babbling nonsense about that. It's been a couple of years since I saw that episode, but didn't Kirk agree with what she said, even say that he disagreed with the rule?

 

[sbk1234]

The only person who ever said onscreen that women couldn't be starship captains was Janice Lester, and she was 1) batshit insane, and 2) jealous as all hell.

So nothing she said can, or should, be taken at face value.

Her actual line was something like "Your world of starship captains has no place for women," or words to that effect.
I always took that to mean that she was speaking directly to Kirk and HIS world of being a starship captain had no room for women in it. That is, except for superficial relationships, that is.

I do agree that she was both insane and jealous, which also would have been cluding her judgement on the subject.

 

[Timo]

That said, has there ever been any explanation for the logic of female officers in go go boots and mini dresses? Other than the sex appeal that is.

Well, in the real world, such a uniform would be excellent attire aboard a spacecraft. Space vehicles have massive problems with dissipation of heat, so they would tend to get very, very hot when major equipment is running at peak levels - say, in combat. So the less you wear, the better. Kirk should have worn a miniskirt, too (that is, more often than just here and in "Plato's Stepchildren" and "Charlie X").

Of course the uniform should have had short sleeves, too...

...didn't Kirk agree with what she said, even say that he disagreed with the rule?

Kirk didn't bother to contradict the madwoman, no. But he doesn't really say anything about a "rule". The bit of discussion already quoted above runs more fully like this:

Lester: "The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive."
Kirk: "I never stopped you from going on with your space work."
Lester: "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."
Kirk: "No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it."

Kirk's "No, it isn't fair" seems to be both a general lament that the two had to go their separate ways, and an accusation that Lester is and was being unfair and unreasonable about it. Also, Kirk's first line suggests that Lester engaged in a bit of self-martyrdom that the regulations didn't call for.

While the line as originally written may have been intended as a glass ceiling thing, it's trivially easy to see it differently, as a mental barrier between Kirk and Lester.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[borgboy]

Kirk and the other guyus in miniskirts would have been great lol. There actually was a miniskirt variation of the Starfleet uniform in the first episode of TNG worn by a few men and women!

 

[bluedana]

That said, has there ever been any explanation for the logic of female officers in go go boots and mini dresses? Other than the sex appeal that is.

Well, in the real world, such a uniform would be excellent attire aboard a spacecraft. Space vehicles have massive problems with dissipation of heat, so they would tend to get very, very hot when major equipment is running at peak levels - say, in combat. So the less you wear, the better. Kirk should have worn a miniskirt, too (that is, more often than just here and in "Plato's Stepchildren" and "Charlie X").

Of course the uniform should have had short sleeves, too...

...didn't Kirk agree with what she said, even say that he disagreed with the rule?

Kirk didn't bother to contradict the madwoman, no. But he doesn't really say anything about a "rule". The bit of discussion already quoted above runs more fully like this:

Lester: "The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive."
Kirk: "I never stopped you from going on with your space work."
Lester: "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair."
Kirk: "No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it."

Kirk's "No, it isn't fair" seems to be both a general lament that the two had to go their separate ways, and an accusation that Lester is and was being unfair and unreasonable about it. Also, Kirk's first line suggests that Lester engaged in a bit of self-martyrdom that the regulations didn't call for.

While the line as originally written may have been intended as a glass ceiling thing, it's trivially easy to see it differently, as a mental barrier between Kirk and Lester.

Timo Saloniemi

I think it's easy and accurate to read Lester's comment as a complaint about an Old Boys' Club. When my best friend was in med school, she was torn between surgery and OB-GYN. Ultimately, she chose OB-GYN, because surgery was not a welcoming place for women. There was, of course, no rule that women couldn't be surgeons; rather, the culture of the surgery service was such that women were demoralized and overlooked (for the "good" surgeries to train on) until they gave up. Nobody condoned it really; that's just the way it was. (A similar situation existed with respect to partner in law firms when I first started practicing. I'm talking about firms being proud that they had 2 women partners out of 75.)

I've always heard Lester's lament to be the same sort of thing. The "starship captain" world was not welcoming to women, so there were none (or, as ENT shows us, perhaps very few) because of "they," whoever "they" were, just made it too hard.

Or it could be that they closed doors to her, specifically, because she was, you know. batsh*t crazy.

 

[borgboy]

I can see where the no female captians could be interpreted as an "boy;s club" way of doing things vs an actual rule. Even still that makes the 23rd century seem awfully unadvanced.
Thankfully things had improved considerably in the the 24th century.

 

[137th Gebirg]

A woman in power in the TOS universe:

"Brain and brain...WHAT IS BRAIN?!?"

 

[Solariabsg25]

I simply read it to mean that there may be Federation ship captains, but at this time no Starship Captains, at this time when the Constitutions were something "special" and starship was applied just to them and not all ships in Starfleet.

This comment makes sense in TOS, but not afterwards when every ship is called a starship.

 

[kissthestar]

Others have compared these two shows, Star Trek and Dark Shadows. Both are genre shows, have cult followings, featured 60's themes/motifs, and have served as icons for the TV of their era.

 

[kissthestar]

Captian and captian! What is captian?

 

[Anwar]

But we did see a female captain in TOS: The captain of the Saratoga in TVH.

 

[Shatmandu]

But we did see a female captain in TOS: The captain of the Saratoga in TVH.

. . . and it was pulled off the side of the road with the hood up.

Joe, sola sail

 

[Kegek]

A woman in power in the TOS universe:

"Brain and brain...WHAT IS BRAIN?!?"

And the next episode after that one in broadcast order was "The Enterprise Incident", which features a strong-willed, albeit alien, female commander. True, one of the main reasons she's female is so there can be a seduction angle in her interactions with Spock, but it's certainly a more positive depiction of female authority.

 

[borgboy]

I know the movie era had female captains, but that was years after Janice's meltdown.
The Romulan Commander is a good example of a woman in power in that era. Too bad sje never showed up in the series again, she was a really fascinating character, and probably the best female romantic lead they paired Spock up with, in large part because she works well as a character even without a romantic angle.

 

[JM1776]

I think it's easy and accurate to read Lester's comment as a complaint about an Old Boys' Club.

Time on target, and entirely unnecessary for revisionist historians to see it otherwise.

It's difficult to reconcile not with Saratoga's commander, but Erika Hernandez commanding USS Columbia in the fifties—the 2150's, that is.

The Romulan Commander would have been a wonderful depiction if she hadn't been presented in some measure as astonishingly dull-witted and incompetent.