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Why naval traditions and ranks?

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Enrage

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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I've been thinking about this recently: Why does Star Trek use naval traditions, rank structure, etc? If we can assume a natural evolution from the present day it seems far more likely than any future space-borne organization would have adopted Air Force traditions.

Was it simply that it makes it easier to tell stories with a more extensive and established naval history to draw on?
 
In "The Making of Star Trek" Roddenberry reasoned that the role he envisioned for the Enterprise was much like the one played by major seagoing vessels during the 18th and 19th British Empire. The captains of those vessels had to have the initiative and courage to operate independently out of contact with headquarters for months at a time. To a great extent, the vessels were the only law on a mostly lawless frontier and the Captains were required to act as military leaders and diplomats as well as dispensing justice in the name of the crown. (i.e. presiding over hangings)

Also if you've seen "Master or Commander" or are familiar with any of the Hornblower novels or TV series you've probably noticed some pretty clear similarities.
 
It's not evolution of technology, it's the style of the show. Star Trek is modeled on the British Empire of old. controlling the world with it's navy. Star Trek is basically "Horatio Hornblower" in space when you're talking it's "setup".

Of course, it's a late 60s we're a groovy mini-skirt wearin' sort of benevolent navy, in space. :lol:
 
Perhaps the use of old-school naval ranks and traditions helps to "ground" the show in a framework that's at least somewhat familiar to the average viewer.
 
While NASA tends to follow the USAF because they need pilots to fly the shuttle, I've always thought Trek's naval traditions made sense. Indeed, naval traditions abound in "starship" sci-fi in general.

They're away from home for long periods of time, like the navy. They operate large vessels with hundreds or even thousands of crew members so a naval rank structure would make sense. Naval terminology can be easily adapted to a starship (port, starboard, bow, etc.). Serving on a starship would probably be a lot like serving on an aircraft carrier or a submarine. With more room of course. :lol:
 
Maybe the air force just ... went away after WW3? A nuclear war and post-atomic horror could do funny things to the defense departments of the world. Well-funded armies and navies already have some organic air assets; by the 2050s that could have evolved into the ability to launch satellites, and from there it's just a matter of time until "airplanes" become "spaceplanes" and then "spaceships."
 
FalTorPan said:
Perhaps the use of old-school naval ranks and traditions helps to "ground" the show in a framework that's at least somewhat familiar to the average viewer.

Which from a variety of sources, The Making of... and Inside Star Trek, seem to state was the intention of Roddenberry because up until Trek the television science-fiction iconography and terminology seemed too other worldly with such things as Rocketship X-7.
 
They're away from home for long periods of time, like the navy. They operate large vessels with hundreds or even thousands of crew members so a naval rank structure would make sense. Naval terminology can be easily adapted to a starship (port, starboard, bow, etc.). Serving on a starship would probably be a lot like serving on an aircraft carrier or a submarine.

Exactly. Even though in theory, today's British/American rank systems for navies are perfectly eqivalent with the rank systems for armies/air forces, the organizational structure of a Starfleet-style setup would more closely approximate a navy than an army or an air force.

It's pretty idiotic to apply army ranks on air forces to begin with. Army ranks have developed out of the need to control a hierarchy where the smallest fighting unit is about a dozen men, the next one several dozen, then a hundred, several hundred, then thousands. That is, first a group of warriors that can be controlled by talk and hand signs and can fight coherently within sight of each other; then a group manageable by shouts and gestures; then a collection of such groups big enough to make a difference in swordfights, or musket fights, or in raining arrows; then multiples thereof, only manageable through the use of messengers and preplanning.

Air forces never had it like that. The smallest unit of significance was just one or two men, piloting an aircraft - or a dozen in very exceptional flying machines. The next unit would already be in the hundreds: the support force needed to keep even a single plane flying, but more properly applied for keeping a group of planes in the air. Ranks there never made organizational sense - they were originally applied just for reasons of payscale and prestige, sometimes with the senior officer controlling merely twice as many people as the next junior one.

The naval rank system is a mixture of pragmatism and payscale-prestige. A navy wouldn't need quite that many ranks, really, because there is no such thing as a naval platoon or a naval regiment, practically speaking. Ships are basically batallions, with companies for the various watches, calling for Colonels and Majors as the leaders. And formations of ships are already divisions or entire armies, requiring General/Admiral level of control. In contrast, a navy needs a wide variety of specialist officers and specialist men, basically equal in importance, for whom position is far more significant than rank.

Still, the naval division of responsibilities between ranks makes more sense for a Starfleet than the army one. The various junior officers are more "clustered" with the senior ones, all basically presiding over the entire ship rather than over a hierarchy of groups of people - that's definitely a "big vehicle" thing and not a "battlefield" or "small vehicle" (like tank or aircraft) thing.

Timo Saloniemi
 
MikeH92467 said:
In "The Making of Star Trek" Roddenberry reasoned that the role he envisioned for the Enterprise was much like the one played by major seagoing vessels during the 18th and 19th British Empire.

With the one exception that they say "Lieutenant" instead of "Leftenant" or however you spell that.

And I don't know if they used to have Commodore rank.
 
FordSVT said:
While NASA tends to follow the USAF because they need pilots to fly the shuttle, I've always thought Trek's naval traditions made sense. Indeed, naval traditions abound in "starship" sci-fi in general.


Is that why the US Navy has supplied so many pilots to NASA? ;)

They're away from home for long periods of time, like the navy. They operate large vessels with hundreds or even thousands of crew members so a naval rank structure would make sense. Naval terminology can be easily adapted to a starship (port, starboard, bow, etc.). Serving on a starship would probably be a lot like serving on an aircraft carrier or a submarine. With more room of course. :lol:

I have served on a Nimitz Class carrier and there is more room in the Forecastle than a frigging submarine could dream of.
 
FordSVT said:
While NASA tends to follow the USAF because they need pilots to fly the shuttle,

A number of folks in the NASA Astronaut Corps have come from the USN/USMC Naval Aviation community.

Amongst them: Alan Shepard, John Glenn, Jim Lovell, Pete Conrad, Richard gordon, etc.
 
For those using NASA roots in Starfleet, keep in mind that the Navy provides a good chunk of the fliers in NASA. I toured the Naval Academy at Annapolis late last year. One of the interesting facts I found out about the institution is that of any institutions that has trained people that have gone on to become astronauts, Annapolis has provided the most.
 
John_Picard said:
FordSVT said:
While NASA tends to follow the USAF because they need pilots to fly the shuttle, I've always thought Trek's naval traditions made sense. Indeed, naval traditions abound in "starship" sci-fi in general.


Is that why the US Navy has supplied so many pilots to NASA? ;)

Apollo 12 was an all-Navy crew.
 
USS Excelsior said:
With the one exception that they say "Lieutenant" instead of "Leftenant" or however you spell that.

Its spely Lieutenant in the Brit forces but pronounced Leftenant, if my history is right both were in usage at some point but the Leftenant way of saying it became the prefered but oddly we kept calling the rank Leftenant.

Odd history fact for you
 
It comes from Greek influence, IIRC. AU/EU in Greek is pronounced "av/ev" That's why all our "auto--" is pronounced "AWto" in the US (well, and UK) but in Eastern states (like Russia, Greece, etc.) that still follow Gk/Cyrillic text, it's "AVto."

Priest is "ireus" (irevs).

Eucharist in Gk is "Evkharisto."

For some reason, Lieutenant seems to be the only thing that retains the hard pronunciation on the U.

Checking Wiki:

The earlier history of the pronunciation is unclear; Middle English spellings included both forms like lutenand and lyeutenaunt suggesting the /lju-/ pronunciation and those like leeftenant and luftenand suggesting /lɛf-/.[1] The hypothesis that the labial-terminated initial syllable arose as a spelling pronunciation conflating vocalic and consonantal v (the letters u and v were not distinguished before the eighteenth century) is rejected by the Oxford English Dictionary as "not [in] accord with the facts".[1] The rare Old French variant spelling luef for Modern French lieu "place", on the other hand, supports the suggestion that the final /w/ of the Old French word was in certain environments apprehended as a /f/ /v/.[1] The development of the αυ and ευ diphthongs in the Greek language, pronounced /av/ and /ɛv/, respectively, in Modern Greek, may lend plausibility to this explanation

Tony

Tony
 
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