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Why do so many fans think replicated food tastes like the "real thing"?

Unimatrix Q

Commodore
Commodore
Everytime there's a topic about replicated food, someone mentions that it must taste identical to natural grown food. Why? There's actually a lot of evidence from the TNG Technical Manual ("Single Bit Errors") and from many episodes (The dialogue between Admiral Vance and Osyraa being just one recent example) that there are really differences in taste between "real", that means natural grown, food and the replicated variety.

So let's discuss this issue.
 
Food consists of protein, carbohydrate and lipid molecules and other chemical compounds that give a particular food its distinctive flavor and texture. If replicated food doesn't taste the same as "real" food, it may be because some of those molecules don't get copied exactly. We know that replicator technology has its limits; for example, latinum can't be replicated.
 
Food consists of protein, carbohydrate and lipid molecules and other chemical compounds that give a particular food its distinctive flavor and texture. If replicated food doesn't taste the same as "real" food, it may be because some of those molecules don't get copied exactly. We know that replicator technology has its limits; for example, latinum can't be replicated.

Resequenced protein = Recycled poo.

A kingdom of shit.
 
I always thought it would be like Soy milk, the difference is there but only really noticeable if you're looking for it/a milk connoisseur.

The writers don't give a stuff about the technical manual, beyond a bit of fun you shouldn't read anything into it at all.
 
I always thought it was a case that a lot of replicated foods taste like the real thing, but there is also a lot of replicated food that doesn't. IMO, replicated food is the ultimate processed food and it's only real advantages over the real thing is in speed and labor-saving...
 
Replicated food should taste like the real thing, because it's essentially a transporter duplicate of whatever actual item was scanned into the replicator. It's an exact replica down to the molecular level, so there's no reason it shouldn't taste real. When the writers decided to have characters start talking about how replicated food didn't taste real, it never made sense to me. It seemed like misunderstanding what replication was. It's particularly absurd that they're still writing those conversations in a show set in the 32nd century. The technology should be even more perfected by then.

And no, I'm not convinced by the "single bit error" excuse. Those are errors on the level of subatomic particles, way too minor to have any noticeable difference on the chemical composition of a complex organic molecule in a way that would affect its flavor.

The only real difference should be that every replicated copy of a given item would taste the same, because they're all exact replicas of the same original item. So they wouldn't have the individual variety of real food items, the differences between any two natural-grown fruits or any two hand-made sandwiches or whatever. Maybe that's what people mean when they say it doesn't taste real -- that it's the variety and the imperfections that give real food its character, while replicated food, however perfectly reproduced, is just too uniform. You'd get tired of every single turkey sandwich tasting exactly the same, no matter how good it was the first time.
 
personally i think that the best evidence for why they don;t taste entirely right is found in DS9 "blaze of glory", where Eddington calls out replicator food as being explicitly artificial.
EDDINGTON: Replicator entrée number one oh three. Curried chicken and rice with a side order of carrots. Or at least that's what they want us to believe. But you and I both know what we're really eating. Replicated protein molecules and textured carbohydrates.
SISKO: It's not that bad.
EDDINGTON: It may look like chicken, but it still tastes like replicated protein molecules to me.

To me this explains a lot, especially when combined with the more recent trek such as DIS, where the nature of how the earlier synthesizers handled things came up, like the development of Glucose and Amino Matrices governing the creation of food items. since food synthesizers are largely described as working similar to replicators, in that they manipulate molecules to assemble the food from raw feedstocks, the only real difference between them seems to be the use of transporter technology to do the assembling in situ. to this end i suspect that Replicator food, unless programmed otherwise, is not much different from the old synthesizer meals, still using many of the older tech's recipes with what is effectively synthetic components grown from chemical formulas. this would tally up with TNG "the price" where Troi tells the computer to not make its 'typical simulated nutritionally perfect version' and give her a real icecream sunday. replicator food isn't "real", it is simulations that try to taste as real as possible but which have flavor and texture that is "off" compared to the real deal. which only really becomes apparent for people with a lot of experience with non-replicated food.
 
personally i think that the best evidence for why they don;t taste entirely right is found in DS9 "blaze of glory", where Eddington calls out replicator food as being explicitly artificial.
EDDINGTON: Replicator entrée number one oh three. Curried chicken and rice with a side order of carrots. Or at least that's what they want us to believe. But you and I both know what we're really eating. Replicated protein molecules and textured carbohydrates.
SISKO: It's not that bad.
EDDINGTON: It may look like chicken, but it still tastes like replicated protein molecules to me.

But that's not how it's supposed to work. That's a change from the original concept. The idea was supposed to be that a replicator is to a transporter what a video player is to live TV -- the same process, but from recorded data instead of live. Replicated food is supposed to be an exact replica of a real food item that was scanned into the replicator database at some point. Aside from being at molecular resolution rather than quantum resolution -- which only means it can't reproduce living things -- it should be exactly identical. I don't know why the shows' writers were so keen to downgrade the technology and pretend that it was much more primitive than it was meant to be.

I mean, good grief, The Making of Star Trek said that even in the 23rd century, "synthesized" food was made largely from real ingredients that were preserved using advanced methods and swiftly prepared and cooked by a robotic kitchen. And NX-01 had a live chef onboard and lots of food prepared from real ingredients, with protein resequencers merely being a supplement to the real thing. So where's the sense in saying that all 24th-century food is some kind of poorly done fake, let alone 32nd-century food?


to this end i suspect that Replicator food, unless programmed otherwise, is not much different from the old synthesizer meals, still using many of the older tech's recipes with what is effectively synthetic components grown from chemical formulas. this would tally up with TNG "the price" where Troi tells the computer to not make its 'typical simulated nutritionally perfect version' and give her a real icecream sunday. replicator food isn't "real", it is simulations that try to taste as real as possible but which have flavor and texture that is "off" compared to the real deal. which only really becomes apparent for people with a lot of experience with non-replicated food.

Interesting thought, but I don't think those are quite the same concept. 22nd-century protein-resequenced food was supposed to be an approximation of the real thing, differing due to the limitations of the technology. What Troi was talking about in "The Price" was artificial in the opposite direction -- it represented a technology so advanced that it could improve on reality, re-engineering it on a molecular level to make it more nutritious. By analogy, if protein resequencers are the equivalent of stop-motion visual effects in a movie, doing their best to simulate a real creature but imperfect enough to be recognizably fake, replicators are the equivalent of modern CGI, capable of creating a perfectly lifelike image of a creature but also able to heighten reality and change it to suit the designer's preference. In "The Price," Troi is complaining about the food being too perfect to be real, not about it being imperfect. She wants the flaws and imperfections of the real thing, specifically the lack of nutritional value.
 
EDDINGTON: It may look like chicken, but it still tastes like replicated protein molecules to me.

The "to me" gives us an out here. Eddington knows its not real (and is offended by that) and so his brain won't let him ignore what small differences there are. I'm sure many of us have had the experience of enjoying some food, finding out that some ingredient we don't like is in it, and suddenly the food doesn't taste as good anymore. I'll bet if you slipped some real food in with his replicated food he wouldn't immediately notice (even if he could normally tell the difference when comparing real and replicated directly).
 
The "to me" gives us an out here. Eddington knows its not real (and is offended by that) and so his brain won't let him ignore what small differences there are. I'm sure many of us have had the experience of enjoying some food, finding out that some ingredient we don't like is in it, and suddenly the food doesn't taste as good anymore. I'll bet if you slipped some real food in with his replicated food he wouldn't immediately notice (even if he could normally tell the difference when comparing real and replicated directly).

My preferred handwave is close to that, but goes even further -- that the supposed difference between real and replicated food is totally imaginary, just people tasting what they expect. You can often fool people in taste tests by making them think there's a difference that isn't really there. Even wine connoisseurs can be served a cheap wine in an expensive bottle and convince themselves it has all the quality and nuances of the expensive wine, because our perceptions are shaped by our expectations. So I figure replicated food probably tastes just as good as the real thing, but people expect it to taste worse and convince themselves it does. The human brain excels at self-deception.
 
23rd Century food replicator:
KIRK: On Earth today, it's Thanksgiving. If the crew has to eat synthetic meat loaf, I want it to look like turkey.
It not real turkey, not in taste and not even in appearance.
 
But that's not how it's supposed to work. That's a change from the original concept. The idea was supposed to be that a replicator is to a transporter what a video player is to live TV -- the same process, but from recorded data instead of live. Replicated food is supposed to be an exact replica of a real food item that was scanned into the replicator database at some point. Aside from being at molecular resolution rather than quantum resolution -- which only means it can't reproduce living things -- it should be exactly identical. I don't know why the shows' writers were so keen to downgrade the technology and pretend that it was much more primitive than it was meant to be.

I personally agree with you, that practically speaking replicated stuff shouldn't seem inferior to the real copy. :D I do recall reading - perhaps on Memory Alpha - that the TNG production crew/writers quickly came to dislike the concept of replicators, because they realized a 100% effectively perfect copying device would have as much potential to mess up economy and market as it would to provide benefits. Why would any historical treasures be particularly valuable, even rare, if anyone can simply duplicate them on an molecular level? Or currency like gold latinum (which conveniently "can't be" replicated for plot reasons, even though there's no apparent basis for that in terms of its substance)?
 
23rd Century food replicator:

It not real turkey, not in taste and not even in appearance.

I guess "Charlie X" was before they worked out all the stuff The Making of Star Trek explicated about how the food processing system worked.



I do recall reading - perhaps on Memory Alpha - that the TNG production crew/writers quickly came to dislike the concept of replicators, because they realized a 100% effectively perfect copying device would have as much potential to mess up economy and market as it would to provide benefits. Why would any historical treasures be particularly valuable, even rare, if anyone can simply duplicate them on an molecular level? Or currency like gold latinum (which conveniently "can't be" replicated for plot reasons, even though there's no apparent basis for that in terms of its substance)?

Well, what the heck is wrong with that? That's sad to hear, because they could've accepted the challenge of exploring what a post-scarcity economy looked like, rather than unimaginatively seeing a divergence from what they're familiar with as intrinsically bad.

As for historical treasures, isn't it obvious? Their value isn't in their physical constituents, it's in their origins, their historical significance. The original Mona Lisa was painted by Leonardo; an exact molecular copy of it was not, and thus does not have the same value. The copy of the Declaration of Independence signed in 1776 has historical significance because of all the hands that touched it, while a replica made centuries later is just a replica. The original is always going to be prized more than a replica, no matter how exact. Because it's not about its composition, it's about its context.
 
Well, what the heck is wrong with that? That's sad to hear, because they could've accepted the challenge of exploring what a post-scarcity economy looked like, rather than unimaginatively seeing a divergence from what they're familiar with as intrinsically bad.

Well, just imagine if you could suddenly dump a ton of money into the planetary economy. Nobody would necessarily have to fear poverty anymore, but that doesn't mean the economy would be inherently stable in the short term. It might sound good on paper but there are other economic factors that would need to be considered. Plus, what happens if the relatively few replicators are solely owned by the government, which isn't necessarily interested in improving the welfare of the people? Such technology, if used poorly, can cause a lot of suffering while also ensuring that said government is not in a position to be removed from power easily.

As for historical treasures, isn't it obvious? Their value isn't in their physical constituents, it's in their origins, their historical significance. The original Mona Lisa was painted by Leonardo; an exact molecular copy of it was not, and thus does not have the same value. The copy of the Declaration of Independence signed in 1776 has historical significance because of all the hands that touched it, while a replica made centuries later is just a replica. The original is always going to be prized more than a replica, no matter how exact. Because it's not about its composition, it's about its context.

I agree that context plays a role, but I also think it's a Ship of Theseus problem (if I removed all of the ship's components and replaced them with ones that are functionally identical, is it still the same ship?). If the replicated version is every bit as real and authentic as the one the creator originally made, how can its value be less? And if we're talking a fictional setting like a marketplace, what's to stop an unscrupulous vendor from making plenty of "knockoff" copies that aren't physically cheap copies? They're real for all practical purposes, and in the right context I can become very wealthy even if my sales aren't entirely honest.

For my part, I've come to have a sort of similar bias against the universal translator. I think it's an interesting concept, but I don't really see it replacing dedicated communication specialists to the extent that later series seemed to imply. I think those specialists would be a key part of any crew, and I think the UT would be an ongoing project that's always being improved but isn't always practical. Not unlike today how Google Translate isn't always the best tool, and is frankly pretty funny if you know how to abuse it properly. ;)
 
The original is always going to be prized more than a replica, no matter how exact. Because it's not about its composition, it's about its context.

what's to stop an unscrupulous vendor from making plenty of "knockoff" copies that aren't physically cheap copies?

The existence of the forgery problem is why I think replicators should have a "watermark" physically built into their replication matrix. It wouldn't effect the appearance of an item, but it would be easily detectable by a tricorder scan.

If you have set up shop on a world that doesn't know replicators exist (and thus has a standard currency economy), whether what you are doing is unethical depends entirely on what you are replicating and selling.
 
Well, just imagine if you could suddenly dump a ton of money into the planetary economy. Nobody would necessarily have to fear poverty anymore, but that doesn't mean the economy would be inherently stable in the short term.

That's looking at the wrong part of history, though. I mean, hell yes, the arrival of a post-scarcity era would destabilize any current economic system based on scarcity. It's supposed to. It's supposed to replace it altogether, the same way democracy replaced monarchy, say. But Star Trek is not set at the beginning of that process, it's set much later, when the new economic system is solidly in place and scarcity-based systems like capitalism are historical relics.


Plus, what happens if the relatively few replicators are solely owned by the government, which isn't necessarily interested in improving the welfare of the people?

What the hell are you talking about? Replicators in Star Trek are ubiquitous. What's the point of making up a counterfactual that has nothing to do with what we're actually discussing here, which is Star Trek's portrayal of its future?


I agree that context plays a role, but I also think it's a Ship of Theseus problem (if I removed all of the ship's components and replaced them with ones that are functionally identical, is it still the same ship?). If the replicated version is every bit as real and authentic as the one the creator originally made, how can its value be less?

I already told you that! The value is not in the physical materials that make it up, it's in its direct connection to historical figures or events. The painting that was created by Leonardo's own hand has more value than the copy that was created by a replicator. I would have thought that entirely obvious.


And if we're talking a fictional setting like a marketplace, what's to stop an unscrupulous vendor from making plenty of "knockoff" copies that aren't physically cheap copies? They're real for all practical purposes, and in the right context I can become very wealthy even if my sales aren't entirely honest.

Artifacts have provenance. The location of the original would be known.

And again, we're talking about a post-scarcity economy where nobody cares about monetary value or wealth. Everybody would be insanely rich by modern standards, able to obtain any material object with the punch of a few replicator buttons, so there's no incentive for greed or cheating. If you wanted to own something, it wouldn't be because of some perceived, arbitrary conception of material value, but merely because you like it or find it useful.

A post-scarcity economy is an information economy. Material objects don't have value when any piece of garbage can be reconstituted into a precious gem or a high-quality device. What has value is the data that defines the physical object, the replicator pattern that produces it. Only information would have value. And the difference between an original artifact and a replica is a difference of information -- the knowledge of the original's role in history.


For my part, I've come to have a sort of similar bias against the universal translator. I think it's an interesting concept, but I don't really see it replacing dedicated communication specialists to the extent that later series seemed to imply. I think those specialists would be a key part of any crew, and I think the UT would be an ongoing project that's always being improved but isn't always practical. Not unlike today how Google Translate isn't always the best tool, and is frankly pretty funny if you know how to abuse it properly. ;)

Of course the UT is an implausible plot convenience. But post-scarcity economies are an entirely valid possibility that would likely arise from future technological advances like 3D printing, nanotechnology, and the harnessing of green power and the near-limitless resources of the asteroids. They aren't comparable at all. A universal translator is an eternal impossibility due to the intrinsic nature of how language works, but the end of scarcity would fundamentally transform how economics works.
 
I don't buy that making things artificially more healthy is possible without changing the taste. It's fine if that's all you know, but once you've had the real stuff? I assume that gap is where most of Replicators bad reputation comes from. I'll bet most Federation civilians don't have the authority to ask for non-health modified food out of their government supplied replicator. If you are going to let the Federation feed you, you'll eat what the Federation thinks is good for you.
 
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