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Who is Li Quan?

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Rush Limborg

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A couple of times in TOS, the characters gave a list of notorious Earth dictators. This happened in "Patterns of Force" and "Whom Gods Destroy".

The lists basically went, "Napoleon...Hitler...Stalin...Khan...and Li Quan."

Who the heck is Li Quan?

Diane Carey tackled this question in Dreadnought! Miss Piper explained that he was a 21st-century collectivist who's ambitions and desires for order led directly to WWIII.

I wonder...why hasn't Quan been mentioned for a while? Is there anything else on him, literary or otherwise?
 
He entered the Witness Protection Program, changing his name to Si Cwan and moving to another neighborhood where he could keep a low profile.
 
A couple of times in TOS, the characters gave a list of notorious Earth dictators. This happened in "Patterns of Force" and "Whom Gods Destroy".

The lists basically went, "Napoleon...Hitler...Stalin...Khan...and Li Quan."

Who the heck is Li Quan?

Actually it's spelled Lee Kuan in the scripts. Presumably he's somebody who was a tyrant in the 21st or 22nd century. He's one of various future or alien dictators/tyrants mentioned in TOS episodes, including Ferris, Maltuvis, and Krotus.

I believe I made a passing reference to this person in one of my works of Trek fiction, but I think I used the Li Quan spelling. I can't remember where that was, though.
 
Perhaps Li Quan was the leader of the Eastern Coalition in the years leading up to World War III?
 
Perhaps Li Quan was the leader of the Eastern Coalition in the years leading up to World War III?
What nation states were part of the E-Con anyway? I always saw it as the Middle- and Far-East; more specifically, the oil states, Russia, and the Orient.
 
Perhaps Li Quan was the leader of the Eastern Coalition in the years leading up to World War III?
What nation states were part of the E-Con anyway? I always saw it as the Middle- and Far-East, the oil states, Russia, and the Orient.

Not much canonical or non-canonical data on membership in the Eastern Coalition that I'm aware of.

We do know from the Lost Era novel The Sundered by Michael A. Martin and Andy Mangels, however, that the Eastern Coalition's membership did not included what was referred to as the Muslim Bloc -- a union of majority-Muslim states in the Middle East that had recently become democracies (and presumably had finally made peace with Israel) in the 2030s. The Eastern Coalition also did not include the European Union, which had apparently centralized and achieved out-and-out statehood by the 2030s, nor the United States, which remained an EU -- and presumably Muslim Bloc -- ally.

Two major cities in the Eastern Coalition were identified in The Sundered as having been destroyed by nuclear detonations during the May Day Horror of 2050: Karachi, in present-day Pakistan, and New Delhi, the capital of present-day India. This indicates that Pakistan and India were part of the Eastern Coalition.

Given the traditional rivalry of India and Pakistan, I rather imagine that it's unlikely that they would ever have willingly allied with one-another, even if they did manage to eventually achieve some sort of peace over Kashmir and other issues between them. Between that and the real-world rise of China as an economic and military superpower that everyone's expecting to occur in the next few decades, I would speculate that the Eastern Coalition is dominated by China and that either both India and Pakistan were conquered or otherwise forced to join the ECON, or that either India or Pakistan allied with China and joined the ECON willingly and that the ECON then conquered, or otherwise coerced into joining, the other.

Because of Nepal's status as being located between China and India and the presumed need for the ECON to be contiguous, I can't imagine that Nepal wouldn't be forced into it even if it didn't want to. Whether or not the ECON would include Bhutan, Bangladesh, Burma, or the rest of Southeastern Asia, I don't think there's enough information to speculate.

I have no idea if Afghanistan would be part of the Muslim Bloc. I would speculate that Iran is probably not part of the Muslim Bloc because they're majority-Persian and majority-Shia, whilst most of the Middle Eastern states are majority-Arab and majority-Sunny (Iraq excepted on the majority-Sunni part). Iraq seems to be part of the Muslim Bloc from The Sundered, though I would say that that assumption needn't be hard-and-fast given their differing religious majority.

I don't think we have any clue at all about Russia's position relative to all this, nor Mongolia's, nor Japan's, nor the Koreas'. The novelization of Star Trek: First Contact by JM Dillard refers to an independent Indonesia and seems to imply that Indonesia has become a major economic power post-WW3, so I would presume that they were not part of the ECON and may have even stayed neutral during the war.
 
Perhaps Li Quan was the leader of the Eastern Coalition in the years leading up to World War III?

Or else the guy who presided over the Post-Atomic Horror, depicted in the trial scenes of "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things..."

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Given the traditional rivalry of India and Pakistan, I rather imagine that it's unlikely that they would ever have willingly allied with one-another, even if they did manage to eventually achieve some sort of peace over Kashmir and other issues between them.

I'm not sure "traditional" is the word, considering they've only existed as separate nations for 61 years and their creation was an awkward compromise imposed by Britain in its haste to get out of India. Heck, the Hindu and Muslim communities in India generally got along relatively well until the British Raj stirred up hostilities between them to keep them divided and weakened. Really, the chief rivalry is over Jammu & Kashmir, but their inability to resolve its status has just kept the fight going and created increasing amounts of bad blood. So I'd call it more a feud than a traditional rivalry.

Between that and the real-world rise of China as an economic and military superpower that everyone's expecting to occur in the next few decades, I would speculate that the Eastern Coalition is dominated by China and that either both India and Pakistan were conquered or otherwise forced to join the ECON, or that either India or Pakistan allied with China and joined the ECON willingly and that the ECON then conquered, or otherwise coerced into joining, the other.

No conquest need be involved. A coalition isn't a single state, it's an alliance of states. It's possible that India, Pakistan, China, and others decided it was in their best interests to ally despite their differences. It's entirely possible that India and Pakistan finally agreed to hold the plebiscite that's been promised and delayed for decades and let the people of Jammu & Kashmir officially decide which nation they want to belong to, or that they resolved the dispute some other way.

Indeed, China may not be the strongest member of ECON. China's Three Gorges Dam is a disaster waiting to happen, built with inferior materials and poor quality control due to rampant corruption. There's a very good chance that it will burst sometime in the next few decades and cause a flood of epic proportions, killing and displacing millions. The resultant social discontent and chaos could well bring down the Chinese government, maybe even breed civil war. The China that belongs to ECON in the 2050s may be a much weaker China with a very different government, a non-Marxist one that's therefore more amenable to an alliance with a religious state like Pakistan or Nepal.

I have no idea if Afghanistan would be part of the Muslim Bloc. I would speculate that Iran is probably not part of the Muslim Bloc because they're majority-Persian and majority-Shia, whilst most of the Middle Eastern states are majority-Arab and majority-Sunny (Iraq excepted on the majority-Sunni part). Iraq seems to be part of the Muslim Bloc from The Sundered, though I would say that that assumption needn't be hard-and-fast given their differing religious majority.

Ethnic nationalism is not a given. It's a European invention that the British and Americans have spread to the rest of the world. The Mideast today is divided between ethnic groups as a legacy of the changes Europe imposed upon it. Before then, the Ottoman Empire was a very inclusive state; as in America today, Ottomans defined themselves by national allegiance first, religion second, ethnic group third if at all. (Well, okay, a lot of Americans probably put ethnic group second.) Indeed, Islam is the most ethnically diverse religious community in the world.

The name "Muslim Bloc" suggests that its members have chosen to base their definition of identity on religion rather than ethnicity, so an Arab/Persian distinction wouldn't matter. If they placed ethnicity first, they'd probably be called the "Arab Bloc" or something. As for the Sunni/Shi'a division, that hasn't kept Muslims from banding together as part of a shared community, at least when defining themselves in opposition to other societies such as the West.

Right now, the Islamic world is going through an identity crisis, torn between different views of how to define themselves as a society. Today, ethnic and religious nationalism dominates, and the result is chaos, death, and poverty. So the next generation might reject that way of thinking and embrace a more inclusive, pan-Islamic sense of identity, perhaps invoking the Ottoman era as an idealized past to recapture. If that were the basis of the Muslim Bloc, it could easily include Iran, Afghanistan, and North Africa as well as the Mideast.

The novelization of Star Trek: First Contact by JM Dillard refers to an independent Indonesia and seems to imply that Indonesia has become a major economic power post-WW3, so I would presume that they were not part of the ECON and may have even stayed neutral during the war.

Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim-majority nation, although its brand of Islam is much more liberal and tolerant than the brand being pushed by Wahhabist militants such as al-Qaeda. It could be a member, or even the leader, of the Muslim Bloc -- although it's a society that prides itself on its religious and cultural pluralism, so it would be unlikely to choose a name like that if it were the founder. Unless it, too, went through a major unexpected change in the next 40-odd years.
 
Given the traditional rivalry of India and Pakistan, I rather imagine that it's unlikely that they would ever have willingly allied with one-another, even if they did manage to eventually achieve some sort of peace over Kashmir and other issues between them.

I'm not sure "traditional" is the word, considering they've only existed as separate nations for 61 years and their creation was an awkward compromise imposed by Britain in its haste to get out of India. Heck, the Hindu and Muslim communities in India generally got along relatively well until the British Raj stirred up hostilities between them to keep them divided and weakened. Really, the chief rivalry is over Jammu & Kashmir, but their inability to resolve its status has just kept the fight going and created increasing amounts of bad blood. So I'd call it more a feud than a traditional rivalry.

Fair enough. But it's been going for quite a while now, and I have difficulty imagining it ending in the next fifty years. It's certainly not impossible, though -- I mean, who would have imagined a black man as President of the United States fifty years ago?

Between that and the real-world rise of China as an economic and military superpower that everyone's expecting to occur in the next few decades, I would speculate that the Eastern Coalition is dominated by China and that either both India and Pakistan were conquered or otherwise forced to join the ECON, or that either India or Pakistan allied with China and joined the ECON willingly and that the ECON then conquered, or otherwise coerced into joining, the other.

No conquest need be involved. A coalition isn't a single state, it's an alliance of states.

Well, I suppose I should mention that I'm approaching this from the assumption that the Eastern Coalition is not actually a coalition, but rather an Orwellianly-named state used by one nation to control and dominate other nations. That's completely speculation, of course -- but, like I said, I just don't buy the idea of these states that so thoroughly distrust each other, China, Nepal, India, and Pakistan, unifying except by force.

Indeed, China may not be the strongest member of ECON. China's Three Gorges Dam is a disaster waiting to happen, built with inferior materials and poor quality control due to rampant corruption. There's a very good chance that it will burst sometime in the next few decades and cause a flood of epic proportions, killing and displacing millions. The resultant social discontent and chaos could well bring down the Chinese government, maybe even breed civil war. The China that belongs to ECON in the 2050s may be a much weaker China with a very different government, a non-Marxist one that's therefore more amenable to an alliance with a religious state like Pakistan or Nepal.

Interesting, and a very, very valid point! Given that, it may well be that India is the driving force behind the ECON.

Right now, the Islamic world is going through an identity crisis, torn between different views of how to define themselves as a society. Today, ethnic and religious nationalism dominates, and the result is chaos, death, and poverty. So the next generation might reject that way of thinking and embrace a more inclusive, pan-Islamic sense of identity, perhaps invoking the Ottoman era as an idealized past to recapture. If that were the basis of the Muslim Bloc, it could easily include Iran, Afghanistan, and North Africa as well as the Mideast.

All very true and valid. I suppose I would just say that my presumption is that these aspects of the Islamic world's identity crisis won't all go away -- even if they mostly unify and democratize, I rather suspect that they'll have trouble throwing off ethnic nationalism until after First Contact, just like the rest of the planet, which is why I imagine Iran would be excluded. All just my speculation, of course.

The novelization of Star Trek: First Contact by JM Dillard refers to an independent Indonesia and seems to imply that Indonesia has become a major economic power post-WW3, so I would presume that they were not part of the ECON and may have even stayed neutral during the war.

Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim-majority nation, although its brand of Islam is much more liberal and tolerant than the brand being pushed by Wahhabist militants such as al-Qaeda. It could be a member, or even the leader, of the Muslim Bloc -- although it's a society that prides itself on its religious and cultural pluralism, so it would be unlikely to choose a name like that if it were the founder. Unless it, too, went through a major unexpected change in the next 40-odd years.

I think Indonesia is probably independent at the time of WW3.
 
Actually it was "Ni Kwan". And it's uttered many times in the background when Arthur encounters the Knights Who Say "Ni" in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

--Ted
 
I think the real question we need to ask ourselves is where does Count Dressler fit in? We know distressingly little about his early career, before he fled into deep space.
 
Fair enough. But it's been going for quite a while now, and I have difficulty imagining it ending in the next fifty years. It's certainly not impossible, though -- I mean, who would have imagined a black man as President of the United States fifty years ago?
Really, who would have imagined most of what exists in the world today fifty years ago? That the Iron Curtain would be gone and that the greatest threat to world peace was coming from rogue groups based in the Third World? That the key use of laser beams would be to ring groceries? That not only would we not have flying cars, but we'd have to pump our own gas into our own ground vehicles?

Which only goes to prove that the ease or difficulty with which we imagine our futures is kind of irrelevant, no?
 
Fair enough. But it's been going for quite a while now, and I have difficulty imagining it ending in the next fifty years. It's certainly not impossible, though -- I mean, who would have imagined a black man as President of the United States fifty years ago?

And who would've imagined that the Soviet Union would cease to exist in 1991? In TOS, Chekov said he was from Leningrad, not St. Petersburg. Of all the predictions made by SF novelists, storytellers, and filmmakers, none of them anticipated Gorbachev and glasnost, and many imagined the Cold War enduring for far longer than it did.

Well, I suppose I should mention that I'm approaching this from the assumption that the Eastern Coalition is not actually a coalition, but rather an Orwellianly-named state used by one nation to control and dominate other nations. That's completely speculation, of course -- but, like I said, I just don't buy the idea of these states that so thoroughly distrust each other, China, Nepal, India, and Pakistan, unifying except by force.

The United States and the USSR unified against their common enemies of the Axis, even though their differences were great enough that they were mortal foes within a couple of years after the alliance ended. And again, there's no reason to assume that the governments that exist in those nations today will still be there four and a half decades from now. If the USSR could vanish as suddenly as it did, who knows what else could abruptly change?
 
Fair enough. But it's been going for quite a while now, and I have difficulty imagining it ending in the next fifty years. It's certainly not impossible, though -- I mean, who would have imagined a black man as President of the United States fifty years ago?

And who would've imagined that the Soviet Union would cease to exist in 1991? In TOS, Chekov said he was from Leningrad, not St. Petersburg. Of all the predictions made by SF novelists, storytellers, and filmmakers, none of them anticipated Gorbachev and glasnost, and many imagined the Cold War enduring for far longer than it did.
Actually, I'm not sure Chekov's birthplace was ever mentioned. He claimed Scotch "was invented by a little old lady in Leningrad" and a monitor in Star Trek IV displayed Leningrad instead of St. Petersburg.
 
It's a misunderstanding - the city was renamed again in honour of Captain Lenny "Len" In who saved the city from certain destruction during the romulean wars. It's an easy mistake to make.
 
Actually, I'm not sure Chekov's birthplace was ever mentioned. He claimed Scotch "was invented by a little old lady in Leningrad" and a monitor in Star Trek IV displayed Leningrad instead of St. Petersburg.

Pretty sure Leningrad was mentioned in dialog in IV, not just on a monitor.
 
Bolded for emphasis

I'm not sure "traditional" is the word, considering they've only existed as separate nations for 61 years and their creation was an awkward compromise imposed by Britain in its haste to get out of India. Heck, the Hindu and Muslim communities in India generally got along relatively well until the British Raj stirred up hostilities between them to keep them divided and weakened. Really, the chief rivalry is over Jammu & Kashmir, but their inability to resolve its status has just kept the fight going and created increasing amounts of bad blood. So I'd call it more a feud than a traditional rivalry.

No, they didn't. Although the British tactic of divide and rule was never in doubt. I wouldn't categorise the Mughal Empire as two communities getting along relatively well. I'd call it a minority ruling over a majority with a velvet, occasionally iron fist. While there may have been enlightened and benevolent rulers like Akbar, or Shah Jahan, then there were the out and out tyrants like Aurangzeb. It was still the rule of one group over another, certainly not two communities peacefully co-existing. All the British did was level the playing field, turning everyone into second class citizens.
 
Who is the REAL Lee Kwan, and why hasn't he come clean about his relationship with William Ayers? Is he a socialist, a terrorist, a Marxist, a Muslim? We just don't know.
 
Actually, I'm not sure Chekov's birthplace was ever mentioned. He claimed Scotch "was invented by a little old lady in Leningrad" and a monitor in Star Trek IV displayed Leningrad instead of St. Petersburg.

The point is, the city was called Leningrad repeatedly, in those cases and in "I, Mudd." Whether Chekov was born there is completely irrelevant to the point, which is that it was assumed the Soviet name for the city -- and thus, implicitly, the Soviet Union itself -- would still be around 300 years in the future.

No, they didn't. Although the British tactic of divide and rule was never in doubt. I wouldn't categorise the Mughal Empire as two communities getting along relatively well. I'd call it a minority ruling over a majority with a velvet, occasionally iron fist. While there may have been enlightened and benevolent rulers like Akbar, or Shah Jahan, then there were the out and out tyrants like Aurangzeb. It was still the rule of one group over another, certainly not two communities peacefully co-existing.

That's why I said relatively well. And you can't define history solely by looking at the level of leaders and politicians. Historically, the rank and file have tended to go about their lives largely the same way regardless of who was in charge. And historically, India has traditionally been a society that was very open to religious diversity, and rank-and-file Hindus and Muslims tended to coexist moderately well. They didn't always get along, no, but there was no overarching sense that they had to live in separate nations and had to kill each other to attain it. Yes, conflict has existed in the past, but it would be a mistake to assume that such conflict has been couched in the same ethnic-nationalist terms we take so much for granted today.

And even in British India, there was no universal sentiment that Hindus and Muslims had to live in separate warring nations. There was one faction that wanted separate nations, but others (including Gandhi) that wanted independent India to be a multifaith nation. My point is not that Hindus and Muslims never had conflict in India; my point is that it's a mistake to assume that the modern India-Pakistan conflict is merely a continuation of an ancient, unchanging "tradition." It's a result of many influences, including bad political decisions by the British that exacerbated historic tensions that could have been averted with a little more patience and wisdom.
 
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