Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

[Praetor]

In my Google travels, I just came across this for sale - purportedly a replica prop from Star Trek Phase II.

Here's the sample image:

IMO, it's really quite good. They've placed the engine room exactly where Mr. Jefferies original Phase II diagram (as extrapolated by Shaw) suggests it should be, and unless I'm mistaken they have the old engine room up ahead of the impulse engines. I quite like the primordial take on the intermix chamber, which isn't quite linear. (For those not familiar with the Phase II engine room, here's Mike Minor's concept painting, and here's the incomplete set.)

I'd love to get a look at that TOS diagram in the inset, too.

I don't suppose we'd be lucky enough to have the maker of this lovely image amongst our membership?

 

[Maurice]

"This is a fan-made reproduction of the Master Systems Display (aka "MSD") of the Refit Enterprise from Gene Roddenberry's failed second TOS series. This graphic shows what the internal layout of the ship could've been like. I am currently working on converting an AMT/Ertl TMP Enterprise (1979 release, smooth hull detailing) to accompany this piece."

I think it's safe to say there there was no MSD per se for Phase II from which to make a "reproduction". Looks like someone took Jefferies' simple cutaway and plugged in a ton of detail a la an Okuda MSD. Nice work, but to call it a "reproduction" is misleading.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps it was made for the Phase II fan series? In their last vignette, they upgraded their Enterprise to resemble (at least externally) the one planned for the unmade "real" Phase II.

 

[Robert Comsol]

They've placed the engine room exactly where Mr. Jefferies original Phase II diagram (as extrapolated by Shaw) suggests it should be.

I'm really not aware that that is where Matt Jefferies suggested it to be.

On the contrary I'm rather confident that the vertical shaft connecting engineering and saucer hull had been considered by MJ to be a power line (and not a turbo shaft) as early as the TOS schematic in the bridge alcove.

There's also a Phase II pre-production sketch (where did I misplace that? ) that clearly shows the "Mike Minor" reaction pods in the bow of the engineering hull and hints the vertical intermix chamber coil we'd come to see in TMP.

I did contact Andrew Probert on the issue. He wrote me back that the vertical intermix shaft was already there we he joined the production. He couldn't say whether this had been a Mike Minor or Matt Jefferies idea but given the match with the supposed "turbo shaft" I think it was really MJ who put it there.

Bob

 

[Praetor]

I think it's safe to say there there was no MSD per se for Phase II from which to make a "reproduction". Looks like someone took Jefferies' simple cutaway and plugged in a ton of detail a la an Okuda MSD. Nice work, but to call it a "reproduction" is misleading.

Totally agreed.

Perhaps it was made for the Phase II fan series? In their last vignette, they upgraded their Enterprise to resemble (at least externally) the one planned for the unmade "real" Phase II.

I wondered that, myself. They date it as Star Trek: Phase II, 1977, though.

I'm really not aware that that is where Matt Jefferies suggested it to be.

On the contrary I'm rather confident that the vertical shaft connecting engineering and saucer hull had been considered by MJ to be a power line (and not a turbo shaft) as early as the TOS schematic in the bridge alcove.

I knew if I said "exactly" I was getting myself into trouble. Still, you must admit it makes a lot of sense eh?

Part of the reason I feel so confident, at least about the location of the Phase II engine room, is the added square hatch between the two nacelle struts - which to me seems to correspond exactly to where the Mike Minor intermix chamber might be. Working back from that, we might suppose that this would replace the previous engine room.

YMMV, naturally.

There's also a Phase II pre-production sketch (where did I misplace that? ) that clearly shows the "Mike Minor" reaction pods in the bow of the engineering hull and hints the vertical intermix chamber coil we'd come to see in TMP.

Fascinating. I'd love to see that.

 

[Darkwing]

The location between the nacelles makes a lot of sense, but I prefer the forward location. It allows more room for the fly-in cargo hold and avoids having the linear intermix reactor just forward of the shuttle bay, making it less vulnerable.

 

[Maurice]

That the vertical engine element was fully constructed for Phase II is pretty well documented, especially since there's test footage shot around it.

I've never seen any kind of production cutaway drawing from Phase II that indicated any specific interior details other than the hangar deck and one small room in the saucer, and certainly not one showing anything like the Minor-designed engine.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Perhaps it was made for the Phase II fan series? In their last vignette, they upgraded their Enterprise to resemble (at least externally) the one planned for the unmade "real" Phase II.

No. It's not from us.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Best guess: This was intended to be on the back wall of Fleet Admiral Nogura's office in San Francisco (where a scene from the October 1977 pilot script 'In Thy Image' was set), to give viewers a taste of how much the Enterprise had been altered before they saw the 'new' ship itself. They were pretty far into construction of the sets when the decision was made to turn 'In Thy Image' into TMP (and put Taylor/Probert to work on redesigning the redesigned Enterprise) - even if Nogura's office itself wasn't put together, props were likely being made for it.

 

[Christopher]

I doubt it's actually from the period. The concept of MSDs didn't really exist yet -- I think the only cutaway profile of that type we saw as set graphics prior to TNG (not counting the schematic in "Day of the Dove") was in the turbolift in TMP and after. Also, from what I can make out, the inset cutaway of the pre-refit 1701 bears a resemblance to the Doug Drexler "In a Mirror, Darkly" cutaway.

Besides, why would Nogura have had a cross-section of just one ship on his office wall?

 

[Nightowl1701]

For the same reason Admiral Marcus had a model of the Vengeance sitting behind his desk, perhaps?

Besides, that's a Starfleet Command logo on the left side, and the typeface of 'Constitution Refit' and the minimalist white-on-black display also fits what we've seen of the recycled console displays that made it from Phase II to TMP/TWOK. It just...feels right, somehow.

 

[Praetor]

It has to be a fake. A good fake, but a fake nonetheless.

 

[Christopher]

Besides, that's a Starfleet Command logo on the left side, and the typeface of 'Constitution Refit' and the minimalist white-on-black display also fits what we've seen of the recycled console displays that made it from Phase II to TMP/TWOK. It just...feels right, somehow.

Which is exactly what someone trying to create a fake would intend.

I mean, think about it. If this were intended as some kind of MSD, why would it have an inset of the old design? It looks more like somebody found a comparison cutaway drawing on the Internet and faked it up to look like an MSD graphic.

It's also worth noting that "Constitution" was not officially established as the class name of Kirk's ship until TNG. It had been suggested by various production documents and fan references, but it wasn't official at the time of Phase II.

Also, the version of the UFP seal there is not the same one used in TMP graphics. I checked by Star Trek: The Motion Picture Peel-Off Graphics Book by Lee Cole, and the UFP logo she designed for TMP had smaller "laurel leaves" that only went about halfway up the circle, and the "United Federation of Planets" around the outside was on the top in larger print. It's similar enough that maybe it could've been an early draft, but different enough to make me skeptical.

I looked at the original link, and the text says it's "a fan-made reproduction of the Master Systems Display (aka "MSD") of the Refit Enterprise from Gene Roddenberry's failed second TOS series." Now, that's highly questionable right there, because as I said, the term "MSD" did not exist until TNG. It's a failure of research at best. If they use a term that didn't exist at the time, then why should we trust anything else about the claim? Especially when it admits that it's fan-made. Maybe they're just wrongly assuming it's a replica of a real prop, or maybe they're falsely trying to pass off something from a fan's imagination as something that was part of an actual production.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Also, had this MSD existed by the time of the TMP production, they rather would have used this one for the screen graphics than using the stuff of Franz Joseph.

And according to the official TMP blueprints the movie Enterprise belonged to the "Starship Class II" and the "new Enterprise Class".

I'm not aware that TNG officially established "Constitution Class" for the TOS Enterprise.
I've just compiled plenty of evidence in the "Enterprise-A" tech thread that we might be looking at a lot of confusion here.

Bob

 

[TIN_MAN]

Also, had this MSD existed by the time of the TMP production, they rather would have used this one for the screen graphics than using the stuff of Franz Joseph.

Not necessarily, keep in mind that V’ger’s scan of the “E’s” computer memory included all of star fleet’s technical and Tactical data, not just the “E’s” info, therefore the display of the “Constitution”, which at the time would have still been typical of most of the fleet and relatively up to date, would not be surprising, and quite in keeping with the dialogue in the scene.

Anywho, I came across this graphic a year or so ago, even posted a thread about it, and as I recall it had been made for a fan film and there was no attempt by those involved to dupe the public by passing it off as an actual piece of phase II set dressing, or even a reproduction of same.

 

[Praetor]

Anywho, I came across this graphic a year or so ago, even posted a thread about it, and as I recall it had been made for a fan film and there was no attempt by those involved to dupe the public by passing it off as an actual piece of phase II set dressing, or even a reproduction of same.

Ah, thanks, Tin Man. I wasn't here for your thread and didn't find it in my search.

Anyhoo, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[TIN_MAN]

You’re welcome, glad to be of help.

I couldn’t find my old thread either, since I can’t remember the title.

 

[Christopher]

This looks like the thread you want:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=133267

 

[Praetor]

Ah, thanks Christopher.

This came up in another thread but I thought I'd mention it here too since we were discussing the location of the vertical core placement.

You can see a new hatch is indicated between the new nacelles struts above the newly-expanded room there, and the circular yellow marking on the bottom of the hull seems to be correspondingly moved, too. That's even more apparent on this compliation put together by Shaw:



I think that's why many people (myself included) think the vertical core would have been put there.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I think that's why many people (myself included) think the vertical core would have been put there.

Fascinating cross-section, much clearer than the one I had previously seen.

Now, the hatch is indeed interesting but the entire space above doesn't really suggest an engineering section. I find some of that stuff shown here rather confusing.

I think for an intermix shaft the two vertical things towards the bow look like more suitable candidates and the one going all the way to the bottom is much closer to the yellow circle at the TOS Enterprise's bottom than the others.

Bob