When Spock beat up Kirk....

[serenitytrek1]

In the scene when Spock was beating Kirk after Kirk suggested that he never loved his mother. I was wondering how Spock viewed Kirk as a person.

Did he see Kirk as a bully like the kids at the Vulcan school or did he just take the opportunity to beat up Kirk because he personally despised him or both?

 

[F. King Daniel]

He saw Kirk as a bully, like the kids at school. Spock may have disliked Kirk at the time, but certainly not enough to beat the shit out of him. Even seeing Kirk as a bully now only led to Spock snapping because of the extreme stresses he'd endured, losing his mother and his entire homeworld. On any other day he'd probably have kept his cool.

 

[Greg Cox]

Plus, Spock is touchy about his mother. Kirk used a similar line of attack to get Spock to lose his temper in "This Side of Paradise."

 

[shapeshifter]

HAHAHAHAHA! One of my favorite scenes of all time!

Capt. Kirk to Spock: All right, you mutinous, disloyal, computerized half-breed. We'll see about you deserting my ship.
Spock: The term "half-breed" is somewhat applicable, but "computerized" is inaccurate. A machine can be computerized, not a man.
Capt. Kirk: What makes you think you're a man? You're an overgrown jackrabbit. An elf with a hyperactive thyroid.
Spock: Jim, I don't understand...
Capt. Kirk: Of course you don't understand. You don't have the brains to understand. All you have is printed circuits.
Spock: Captain, if you will excuse me.
[Tries to activate the transporter]
Capt. Kirk: [blocks Spock's way and interupts] What can you expect from a simpering, devil-eared freak whose father was a computer and his mother an encyclopedia.
Spock: My mother was a teacher. My father an ambassador.
Capt. Kirk: Your father was a computer, like his son. An ambassador from a planet of traitors. The Vulcan never lived who had an ounce of integrity...
Spock: Captain, please don't...
Capt. Kirk: You're a traitor from a race of traitors. Disloyal to the core. Rotten! Like the rest of your subhuman race. And you've got the GALL... to make love to that girl!
Spock: That's enough.
Capt. Kirk: Does she know what she's getting, Spock? A carcass full of memory banks who should be squatting on a mushroom? Instead of passing himself off as a man? You belong in the circus, Spock, not a starship. Right next to the dog face boy!
[Spock begins beating the stew out of Kirk - he picks up a stool, ready to hit Kirk, then stops - the spore's influence is gone]
Capt. Kirk: Had enough? I never realized what it took to get under that thick hide of yours. Anyhow, I don't know what you're so mad about. It isn't every first officer who gets to belt his captain... several times.
Spock: You did that to me deliberately.
Capt. Kirk: Believe me, Mr. Spock. It was painful. In more ways than one.
[Grabs his hurting arm]
Spock: The spores. They're gone. I don't belong anymore.
Capt. Kirk: You said they were benevolent and peaceful. Violent emotions overwhelm them, destroy them. I had to make you angry enough to shake off their influence. That's the answer, Mr. Spock.
Spock: That may be correct, Captain, but trying to initiate a brawl with over 500 crewmen and colonists is hardly logical.
Capt. Kirk: I had something else in mind. Can you put together a subsonic transmitter? Something we can hook into the communication station and broadcast over the communicators?
Spock: It can be done.
Capt. Kirk: Good. Let's get to work.
Spock: Captain! Striking a fellow officer is a court-martial offense.
Capt. Kirk: Well, if we're both in the brig, who's gonna build the subsonic transmitter?
Spock: That is quite logical, Captain.

Love it.

 

[sonak]

I think he just lost it because Kirk brought up his mother at a sensitive time.

What I've always wondered about this scene is that NONE of the officers on the bridge move to stop Spock after he comes close to murdering Kirk out of rage.

They all just sort of stand around, shocked and staring.

 

[Franklin]

I think he just lost it because Kirk brought up his mother at a sensitive time.

What I've always wondered about this scene is that NONE of the officers on the bridge move to stop Spock after he comes close to murdering Kirk out of rage.

They all just sort of stand around, shocked and staring.

I've always wondered the same thing. It didn't feel right. I could expect that kind of shock at least at first from everyone but the security people and Sarek. Maybe security didn't intervene because they thought Kirk had it coming (which isn't good, but still) and didn't expect Spock would go so far as to kill Kirk. Maybe Sarek didn't intervene because he understood his son was emotionally compromised and needed it to play out to the last minute for Spock himself to realize what he had done and how he really felt. He finally intervened when Spock got the best of Kirk and Kirk's life was in danger.

Could be this scene was filmed while the writers strike was still on and they couldn't change anything. I've thought it could've benefited from everyone being a little less passive. Maybe at least McCoy and Uhura loudly yelling over and over for Spock to stop as he became more and more violent. Maybe a security guy steps in and Spock belts him away. Maybe security finally pulls its phasers just as Sarek yells, "Spock!" In a bit of a standoff, Spock releases Kirk and security puts its phasers down. It also would've made sense for McCoy to pull out his medical scanner and scan Kirk for any internal injuries or broken bones. He could've done it while delivering the line about having no captain.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Best part of the scene, Spock smiling when he was strangling Kirk. He was enjoying it. And the look of horror on Spock's face when he realized it. There is a demon inside him, and the realization snapped him back to reality. Quinto really shined in that scene.

 

[Timo]

Half the bridge crew were untried cadets anyway - even Uhura appears to have been one. They would have needed some sort of encouragement to intervene in the affairs of the higher-ups. Crucially, the security team seemed to consist of them, too, and you don't second-guess people with guns and a self-perceived position of authority.

But there were several fairly mature officers present, in terms of apparent biological age at least, and they would have known a thing or two about regulations. McCoy would have been among those, with the rank braid, experience and gall to intervene. Perhaps we might say that exactly because McCoy did not act, none of the other officers did, either? That still leaves the mystery of why he didn't start hollering and hypospraying in his usual manner...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[iguana_tonante]

Well, there is nothing that we know about Starfleet's regulations that you can't beat up an inferior officer.

 

[horatio83]

They would have needed some sort of encouragement to intervene in the affairs of the higher-ups.

If you think about the chain of command when you see somebody strangling another person working in Starfleet is the wrong occupation.
Spock could have very well killed Kirk while a dozen people stood idly by. In the real world we abhor such behaviour.

The other two scenes in which Spock loses it are perhaps even more shocking, when he throws Kirk off the ship nobody points out how wrong this is and when he expresses his desire for revenge he acts upon the explicit solicitation of his father.

 

[sonak]

They would have needed some sort of encouragement to intervene in the affairs of the higher-ups.

If you think about the chain of command when you see somebody strangling another person working in Starfleet is the wrong occupation.
Spock could have very well killed Kirk while a dozen people stood idly by. In the real world we abhor such behaviour.

The other two scenes in which Spock loses it are perhaps even more shocking, when he throws Kirk off the ship nobody points out how wrong this is and when he expresses his desire for revenge he acts upon the explicit solicitation of his father.

Agreed about the throwing Kirk off the ship part, too. Those parts of the movie are just sloppy writing. It's a result of what happens when the writer's more concerned with getting to where the story needs to go("we need to have Spock resign command" "we need to have Kirk meet Spock prime," etc.) and not so concerned with believable responses from characters.

Trained Starfleet personnel shouldn't stand around gawking while one officer nearly kills another.

 

[flcat]

Yeah, it bothered me that no one intervened, even McCoy, who ostensibly was Kirk's friend.

 

[Franklin]

They would have needed some sort of encouragement to intervene in the affairs of the higher-ups.

If you think about the chain of command when you see somebody strangling another person working in Starfleet is the wrong occupation.
Spock could have very well killed Kirk while a dozen people stood idly by. In the real world we abhor such behaviour.

The other two scenes in which Spock loses it are perhaps even more shocking, when he throws Kirk off the ship nobody points out how wrong this is and when he expresses his desire for revenge he acts upon the explicit solicitation of his father.

Agreed about the throwing Kirk off the ship part, too. Those parts of the movie are just sloppy writing. It's a result of what happens when the writer's more concerned with getting to where the story needs to go("we need to have Spock resign command" "we need to have Kirk meet Spock prime," etc.) and not so concerned with believable responses from characters.

Trained Starfleet personnel shouldn't stand around gawking while one officer nearly kills another.

He was throwing his first officer off the ship for just disagreeing with him and trying to persuade him to take another course of action.

Kirk was being no more adamant and unreasonalbe about his position than he was when he rushed onto the bridge and convinced Pike they were going into an ambush. At that time, Spock said Kirk's logic was sound. And at that time, Kirk had no rank on the ship and could've justifiably been "shown the exit" instead of being listened to and taken seriously.

Then this time, when it's obvious Nero is heading for Earth to destroy it, Spock throws Kirk off the ship because he thinks he must obey an order that can be justifiably belayed by the new commanding officer under the circumstances. Does Spock really think that if Pike were still in command of the Enterprise he would've gone to the Laurentian system after what just happened and what they knew was going to happen?

Then after "exiling" Kirk, Spock tells McCoy he encourages his officers to speak freely. What? That was odd, too.

Again, I think that if there hadn't been a writers strike, scenes like these would've been tweaked to work better.

 

[BillJ]

Then after "exiling" Kirk, Spock tells McCoy he encourages his officers to speak freely. What? That was odd, too.

This was the scene where I thought Quinto as Spock would make an excellent villain for the third film. Knock off Uhura in this film then have an unhinged Spock wanting revenge for the loss of his planet, Mommy and main squeeze.

And since we'll probably get another reboot or a TNG reboot, it would be an excellent way to say goodbye to the Abramsverse.

 

[1bulma1]

I think he just lost it because Kirk brought up his mother at a sensitive time.

What I've always wondered about this scene is that NONE of the officers on the bridge move to stop Spock after he comes close to murdering Kirk out of rage.

They all just sort of stand around, shocked and staring.

I've always wondered the same thing. It didn't feel right. I could expect that kind of shock at least at first from everyone but the security people and Sarek. Maybe security didn't intervene because they thought Kirk had it coming (which isn't good, but still) and didn't expect Spock would go so far as to kill Kirk. Maybe Sarek didn't intervene because he understood his son was emotionally compromised and needed it to play out to the last minute for Spock himself to realize what he had done and how he really felt. He finally intervened when Spock got the best of Kirk and Kirk's life was in danger.

Could be this scene was filmed while the writers strike was still on and they couldn't change anything. I've thought it could've benefited from everyone being a little less passive. Maybe at least McCoy and Uhura loudly yelling over and over for Spock to stop as he became more and more violent. Maybe a security guy steps in and Spock belts him away. Maybe security finally pulls its phasers just as Sarek yells, "Spock!" In a bit of a standoff, Spock releases Kirk and security puts its phasers down. It also would've made sense for McCoy to pull out his medical scanner and scan Kirk for any internal injuries or broken bones. He could've done it while delivering the line about having no captain.

funny you mentioned that becase in the book/novel adapation McCoy and uhura were screaming at him, telling him to stop but he didnt listen. did you see the look on uhura's face? she is scared of him and for him.

 

[1bulma1]

If you think about the chain of command when you see somebody strangling another person working in Starfleet is the wrong occupation.
Spock could have very well killed Kirk while a dozen people stood idly by. In the real world we abhor such behaviour.

The other two scenes in which Spock loses it are perhaps even more shocking, when he throws Kirk off the ship nobody points out how wrong this is and when he expresses his desire for revenge he acts upon the explicit solicitation of his father.

Agreed about the throwing Kirk off the ship part, too. Those parts of the movie are just sloppy writing. It's a result of what happens when the writer's more concerned with getting to where the story needs to go("we need to have Spock resign command" "we need to have Kirk meet Spock prime," etc.) and not so concerned with believable responses from characters.

Trained Starfleet personnel shouldn't stand around gawking while one officer nearly kills another.

He was throwing his first officer off the ship for just disagreeing with him and trying to persuade him to take another course of action.

Kirk was being no more adamant and unreasonalbe about his position than he was when he rushed onto the bridge and convinced Pike they were going into an ambush. At that time, Spock said Kirk's logic was sound. And at that time, Kirk had no rank on the ship and could've justifiably been "shown the exit" instead of being listened to and taken seriously.

Then this time, when it's obvious Nero is heading for Earth to destroy it, Spock throws Kirk off the ship because he thinks he must obey an order that can be justifiably belayed by the new commanding officer under the circumstances. Does Spock really think that if Pike were still in command of the Enterprise he would've gone to the Laurentian system after what just happened and what they knew was going to happen?

Then after "exiling" Kirk, Spock tells McCoy he encourages his officers to speak freely. What? That was odd, too.

Again, I think that if there hadn't been a writers strike, scenes like these would've been tweaked to work better.

Proof the point again that spock saw kirk more as a reckless person than a bully like the kids at the Vulcan school. Spock wants his officers to speak freely except Kirk and this because he personally saw Kirk as a pain in the neck and as someone who did not follow the rules.

The kids at the Vulcan science academy where just prejudice to Spock..I don’t think of any of them where as reckless as Jim.

 

[Franklin]

Agreed about the throwing Kirk off the ship part, too. Those parts of the movie are just sloppy writing. It's a result of what happens when the writer's more concerned with getting to where the story needs to go("we need to have Spock resign command" "we need to have Kirk meet Spock prime," etc.) and not so concerned with believable responses from characters.

Trained Starfleet personnel shouldn't stand around gawking while one officer nearly kills another.

He was throwing his first officer off the ship for just disagreeing with him and trying to persuade him to take another course of action.

Kirk was being no more adamant and unreasonalbe about his position than he was when he rushed onto the bridge and convinced Pike they were going into an ambush. At that time, Spock said Kirk's logic was sound. And at that time, Kirk had no rank on the ship and could've justifiably been "shown the exit" instead of being listened to and taken seriously.

Then this time, when it's obvious Nero is heading for Earth to destroy it, Spock throws Kirk off the ship because he thinks he must obey an order that can be justifiably belayed by the new commanding officer under the circumstances. Does Spock really think that if Pike were still in command of the Enterprise he would've gone to the Laurentian system after what just happened and what they knew was going to happen?

Then after "exiling" Kirk, Spock tells McCoy he encourages his officers to speak freely. What? That was odd, too.

Again, I think that if there hadn't been a writers strike, scenes like these would've been tweaked to work better.

Proof the point again that spock saw kirk more as a reckless person than a bully like the kids at the Vulcan school. Spock wants his officers to speak freely except Kirk and this because he personally saw Kirk as a pain in the neck and as someone who did not follow the rules.

The kids in Vulcan science academy where just prejudice to Spock..I don’t think of them where as reckless as Jim.

Yep. I keep thinking of the scene in TUC where Kirk is pondering his relevance and says to Spock, "You're a great one for logic. I'm a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread. We are both extremists. Reality has brought us somewhere in between." Young Spock would have no way of trusting let alone admiring that instinct in young Kirk.
But Spock Prime did. He knew how important it was to get Kirk in command of the Enterprise. He knew his young self was years away from implicitly trusting Jim Kirk, and had to find out for himself that Kirk was worthy of that trust. After all, young Spock doesn't argue at all with Kirk about his plan to defeat Nero even though Spock believes it has less than a five percent chance of working.

 

[Timo]

If you think about the chain of command when you see somebody strangling another person working in Starfleet is the wrong occupation.

The important point about this would be that these people weren't yet in the occupation, or even learning the ropes - they had been thrown into the room with the ropes for the first time.

A wholly separate issue is that attacking other Starfleet personnel for fully justifiable reasons is a fairly common occurrence in Star Trek, especially in circumstances where the justification is not obvious to the bystander. For all the sidekicks knew, Kirk was responsible for the loss of Vulcan and had just murdered Spock's mother.

I could easily see the scenario acted out in a real-world military - and doubly so in Starfleet, for the double rationale.

And yes, Spock is being quite a villain here. I wouldn't consider that a storytelling shortcoming at all. He has every dramatic right to be "evil" and "illogical" and otherwise fall short of supposed (if a bit pious) human standards: he's the first representative of his species in Starfleet, and no doubt has a lot of trouble fitting in, even without the worries of the world on his shoulders.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

If you think about the chain of command when you see somebody strangling another person working in Starfleet is the wrong occupation.

The important point about this would be that these people weren't yet in the occupation, or even learning the ropes - they had been thrown into the room with the ropes for the first time.

A wholly separate issue is that attacking other Starfleet personnel for fully justifiable reasons is a fairly common occurrence in Star Trek, especially in circumstances where the justification is not obvious to the bystander. For all the sidekicks knew, Kirk was responsible for the loss of Vulcan and had just murdered Spock's mother.

I could easily see the scenario acted out in a real-world military - and doubly so in Starfleet, for the double rationale.

And yes, Spock is being quite a villain here. I wouldn't consider that a storytelling shortcoming at all. He has every dramatic right to be "evil" and "illogical" and otherwise fall short of supposed (if a bit pious) human standards: he's the first representative of his species in Starfleet, and no doubt has a lot of trouble fitting in, even without the worries of the world on his shoulders.

Timo Saloniemi

Um, what? In what "real-world" military do officers assault each other? And WHY would anyone on that bridge think Kirk had anything to do with the death of spock's mother? Where did you get that from?

 

[Timo]

Kirk is an intruder on the ship, having arrived by mysterious means he refuses to divulge. His claim to a Starfleet rank and loyalty to the Federation is seriously being undermined by his actions. To expect the worst of him would only be prudent; to suspect him of murder or worse would only be consistent with how he is behaving.

Sure, Spock is under suspicion as well: he, too, rants and raves (in Vulcan terms anyway), and doubt is cast on his loyalties because he's Nero's "chosen one", for reasons nobody can fully understand. But at least Spock is in uniform and represents continuity; Kirk is a disruptive element from outside the system.

Timo Saloniemi