What if renegade Jem'Hadar succeeded in launching the Iconian gateway?

[Reymet_2]

As we can conclude, their plan was to use the gateway to seize the Keltracel White factories and thus free themselves and other Jem'Hadar from the Dominion.
But, as has been shown in To the Death, many Jem'Hadar were eager to serve the Founders even without the addiction and thus would have remained loyal to the Dominion.
So, there would be a Jem'Hadar civil war (or an even wider Dominion civil war since worlds subjugated by the Dominion certainly would have risen against it, perhaps teaming up with Jem'Hadar rebels).
Wouldn't it be better for Sisko not to help Weyoun but rather stand aside and watch how their main adversaries are weakening themselves?

 

[Tosk]

Just let renegade Jem'Hadar have access to an Iconian gateway? I don't think that's a good idea.

 

[Reymet_2]

Just let renegade Jem'Hadar have access to an Iconian gateway?

As long as they are fighting the loyalist Jem'Hadar, they present no danger for the Federation. Invading Earth would make little sense if their main goal was to free themselves from the Dominion. And we don't know what would be the relations between the Federation and a Jem'Hadar empire in case of their victory. Jem'Hadar would of course remain very warlike but so are Klingons and nevertheless Federation has found a modus vivendi with them.

In the long run it's a potential threat but since there presumably are more than two Iconian gateways in the galaxy, the threat of one falling into wrong hands persists always. And it's debatable what's the lesser evil - the Dominion which can invade the AQ right now or a hypothetical Jem'Hadar empire that would be capable of invading Earth some time in the future.

Even if the Dominion has fallen quickly, there would be a relatively long period of instability in the Gamma Quadrant before a new dominant power emerges.

 

[Tosk]

since there presumably are more than two Iconian gateways in the galaxy, the threat of one falling into wrong hands persists always.

What's your point exactly...Dangers always exist, so why bother to address any of them?

As long as they are fighting the loyalist Jem'Hadar, they present no danger for the Federation.

And when the rebel J'H almost inevitably lose, the Dominion has Iconian tech. Fab.

 

[kkt]

Renegade Jem Hadar would be a bigger power in the galaxy than anyone except possibly the Q. Sure, in the first months they might be busy fighting the loyalist Jem Hadar... but when that was done they'd take on every other power.

And, yes, if the loyalist Jem Hadar did somehow win, then they'd have the gateways.

 

[somebuddyX]

The whole plot was kickstarted when the renegade Jem Hadar attacked DS9 and busted up one of the upper pylons. They made it clear they considered it open season on Dominion and Federation outposts and from that point on it was clear that they had to be eliminated. There was never going to be peace. A lot of the Jem Hadar specific stories like "The Abandoned" or "Hippocratic Oath" and this one seem to be written with the idea that there is never going to be an easy answer to end the coming conflict. It's deliberate to avoid defanging them and having villain rot like Klingons and Borg. The more you get to know them, the more they become our friends. These guys have their own life and structure and they do not want to be our friends.

 

[at Quark's]

Why are those gateways so dangerous anyway, in the larger picture?

I mean, sure, I can understand being able to land your troops in a distant place without the use of ships can be a significant tactical advantage.... but how do you get your troops back after you have made them step through the gateway onto the soil of Godforsaken 3 in the Ahellofalongwayfromhome system in the Farfarfaraway cluster? AFAIK, those portals are one-way only. Or get heavy equipment/bulk quantities through that portal (that doesn't seem to be that much larger than a humanoid)? I'd say that in the longer (strategic) run, you'd still need conventional supply lines, too.

 

[kkt]

Did they say the gateways were one way only?

 

[at Quark's]

Did they say the gateways were one way only?

I don't know for certain (that's why I said AFAIK), but I've never seen or heard any indication they also operate in the other direction either (i.e. from a far away location towards the portal's location) or that those on the other side can even see the portal aperture (e.g. in Contagion the crew on board of the Romulan ship appears totally oblivious to it until Picard steps through). But perhaps I'm mistaken?

 

[kkt]

If the gateways had such a severe limitation, I'm not sure they would have been worthwhile for the Iconians to build them. They'd still need about as many ships. Unless maybe the gateways are normally built in pairs, one for each direction.

 

[DonIago]

More importantly, it's not unreasonable to believe that if a civilization had access to one Iconian gateway then they might be able to reverse engineer it. Perhaps in time they could build a gateway large enough to send a fleet through.

 

[Lynx]

Renegade Jem Hadar would be a bigger power in the galaxy than anyone except possibly the Q. Sure, in the first months they might be busy fighting the loyalist Jem Hadar... but when that was done they'd take on every other power.

And, yes, if the loyalist Jem'Hadar did somehow win, then they'd have the gateways.

Fortunately they didn't.

Andf even if they had won, the renegade Jem'Hadar were a small bunch. Sooner or later they would be eliminated, even if it would cause great losses to those who fought them. They also lacked being lead by Founders or Vorta.

 

[at Quark's]

If the gateways had such a severe limitation, I'm not sure they would have been worthwhile for the Iconians to build them. They'd still need about as many ships. Unless maybe the gateways are normally built in pairs, one for each direction.

It's possible, yes. Or perhaps they can operate in both directions, but the ports that were found simply weren't configured that way. (Which could also have been on purpose - possibly the Iconians didn't want these gateways to be vulnerable to counterattacks or counterinvasions).

Even so, in Endgame , admiral Janeway says of the transwarp Borg hub 'there's nothing in the Alpha quadrant, only exit apertures' when the crew asks her why they can't use the transwarp hub first to come home and then destroy the network. So apparently the Borg -a species obsessed with efficiency- see the value of building a one-way-only (nearly) instantaneous travel network. So, why wouldn't the Iconians?

 

[Tosk]

So apparently the Borg -a species obsessed with efficiency- see the value of building a one-way-only (nearly) instantaneous travel network. So, why wouldn't the Iconians?

My first guess would be because the Borg hub deposits a gigantic spaceship in another part of the galaxy, whereas the Iconian Gateway is an oversized door.

 

[at Quark's]

True, of course the Borg mindset is more along the lines of 'need more personnel or stuff? No need to bring those with us, we'll just, erm, shop locally'

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

More importantly, it's not unreasonable to believe that if a civilization had access to one Iconian gateway then they might be able to reverse engineer it. Perhaps in time they could build a gateway large enough to send a fleet through.

My first guess would be because the Borg hub deposits a gigantic spaceship in another part of the galaxy, whereas the Iconian Gateway is an oversized door.

You can usually make a technology bigger.

 

[at Quark's]

You can usually make a technology bigger.

That very much depends upon the particular technology. Upscaling isn't always as simple as just enlarging the capacity of all components.

More importantly, it's not unreasonable to believe that if a civilization had access to one Iconian gateway then they might be able to reverse engineer it. Perhaps in time they could build a gateway large enough to send a fleet through.

The probability of that also depends upon the size of the gap between the technology levels of the Iconians and the group that found such a gateway. Give a stone age man a microchip, and he won't be able to reverse engineer it within his lifetime, not even if his native raw intelligence and aptitude for science would put Einstein's, Newton's and Gauss' to shame. There are simply too many ideas and intermediate technologies and tools that would have to be discovered and built (on) first. I think it is telling that captain Varley (in TNG:Contagion) uses the 'like a caveman confronted by a tricorder' metaphor when his engineers could not only not determine the technology, but not even the supposed purpose of a handheld device. And we're talking about the 'famed Starfleet engineers that can turn rocks into replicators' here.

Also, Jem'Hadar are bred for battle, not for doing technological research, though they clearly have some aptitude in that field as well. It does make me wonder though, who are the foremost tech and science specialists in the Dominion? We have this Jem'Hadar group that was able to restore an Iconian gateway, and we know about Vorta Doctors involved in genetic research, but both species have a different primary purpose, it seems (diplomats and soldiers).

 

[kkt]

Just making things up, but I think the technological and scientific research is also done by vorta, just different sets of clones from the diplomats and soldiers.

 

[at Quark's]

^True. Or there could be another 'dedicated' servant race we simply never saw, optimized for that kind of work. (Unless the founders would fear creating such a race. Doing proper scientific research requires some independence, freedom and originality of thought, which might get in the way of blind Founder devotion. It might also explain why the Dominion, despite being thousands of years old (2000 or at least 10.000, depending which quote you believe) doesn't seem that more technologically advanced than the Federation when they first meet, perhaps a century or so at most.

 

[Citiprime]

There is a theory/argument that the entire situation was a setup. That the Iconian gateway is a fake, the renegade Jem'Hadar never rebelled, and all of it is part of a "false flag" operation intended to get close to Odo.

The basis for this being it's generally believed it's in this episode where Odo is infected by the virus which forces him to return to the Great Link in order to be judged for killing the fellow Changeling in season 3's "The Adversary."

In this respect, when the Jem'Hadar First murders this version of Weyoun, it's not an indication of his autonomy and ability to go beyond the control of the Founders and Vorta. Instead, it's probably part of his orders to kill the Vorta who's a carrier of a Changeling disease after he completes his mission to infect Odo.

Interesting to note: Odo is also carrying the Section 31 virus at this point too (i.e., the writers/producers have stated that in their minds he was infected to be a carrier during the "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" 2-parter on Earth). And by pulling him back to the Great Link, Odo infects all of the Changelings with it.