Was Obi Wan a bad mentor/teacher?

[Mage]

This isn't one of those fan-discussions about a little observation or something. I'm actually curious if the EU ever went deeper into something I noticed during AotC, or if that was just something in the movie...

After a rewatch the other the day, Obi's way of talking to Anakin and how he sometimes treats him, really stood out to me. Comments like 'my very young padawan', 'you will learn your place', and a snarky 'good job' when the rescue attempt goes wrong. He seems quite the a-hole at times.

Then, during RotS, they are brothers and highly respect each other.

So, was Obi really not a very good mentor/teacher, and was there much animosity between him and Anakin before AotC? Did something change in their relationship after AotC and create a deeper bond?

Or was it just some odd writing for the movie and just best forgotten?

 

[Stephen!]

There's the canon Anakin and Obi-Wan comics, in which Anakin just wants to leave the Jedi Order, but eventually doesn't. There's the animated Clone Wars series - Anakin outright criticises Obi-Wan, prior to his knighthood ceremony. Describing him as "You're no Qui-Gon Jinn".

There's conflict between them in the Jedi Quest novels, set prior to Attack of the Clones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trail_of_the_Jedi
"Anakin Skywalker knows that Obi-Wan Kenobi did not choose him as an apprentice. Instead, it was the dying wish of Obi-Wan's own Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, that brought them together. Now Anakin is beginning to doubt his Master's commitment ... and Obi-Wan is starting to wonder if he will ever be as good a Master as Qui-Gon."

 

[Mage]

See, that's the stuff I ment. Thanks.

 

[Reverend]

After a rewatch the other the day, Obi's way of talking to Anakin and how he sometimes treats him, really stood out to me. Comments like 'my very young padawan', 'you will learn your place', and a snarky 'good job' when the rescue attempt goes wrong. He seems quite the a-hole at times.

It's probably worth remembering the context of these comments: -
The "my very young padawan" jibe was right after Anakin claims to be a better swordmaster than Yoda.
"You will learn your place" comes right after Anakin directly challenged Obi-Wan's authority and attempted to re-interpret the council's instructions.
And of course "good job" is after he wilfully disobeyed a direct order, got himself captured in a botched rescue attempt and endangered the Senator he was supposed to be protecting to boot.

In all these cases, he's trying to temper Anakin's ego a reckless arrogance. All that said, I think you'll find that the biggest critic of Obi-Wan's teaching ability is Obi-Wan himself and he says as much in RotJ.

 

[Mage]

It's probably worth remembering the context of these comments: -
The "my very young padawan" jibe was right after Anakin claims to be a better swordmaster than Yoda.
"You will learn your place" comes right after Anakin directly challenged Obi-Wan's authority and attempted to re-interpret the council's instructions.
And of course "good job" is after he wilfully disobeyed a direct order, got himself captured in a botched rescue attempt and endangered the Senator he was supposed to be protecting to boot.

In all these cases, he's trying to temper Anakin's ego a reckless arrogance. All that said, I think you'll find that the biggest critic of Obi-Wan's teaching ability is Obi-Wan himself and he says as much in RotJ.

All very valid points, but I would think if you wanted to reach someone and teach someone something, sarcasm and harsh words aren't the best way to go.
Your last point however, is a very good one. I did forget about Obi's self reflecting comment.

 

[Reverend]

All very valid points, but I would think if you wanted to reach someone and teach someone something, sarcasm and harsh words aren't the best way to go.
Your last point however, is a very good one. I did forget about Obi's self reflecting comment.

Well here's the thing, by the time we first see them as master and student (unless you count the five seconds they stood around mutely while Padme gave Boss Nass a magical disco ball) was at a point where Obi-Wan been instructing Anakin for going on a decade. By this point Kenobi knows his student very well, has taught him very well and at this point the main concern is that he's all to aware of his proficiency and it's making him dangerously reckless, which is something Kenobi must reign in.

I think people often overstate the antagonism between them in AotC. If you look at their initial exchange in the elevator it's quite friendly and Kenobi is kind and encouraging. It's only when Anakin gets in proximity to Padme that he suddenly becomes belligerent in what can only be an adolescent attempt to show off and prove he's not the little boy she remembers him as.
Just look at the shocked expression on Obi-Wan's face as Anakin openly starts questioning him in front of the Senator. It's clear this is atypical behaviour and it's not because of Obi-Wan, it because of Padme. Remember that he does almost the exact same thing later to Padme in front of the Queen, with no Kenobi in sight.

While Obi-Wan is full of regret over what he could have done differently, ultimately Anakin is responsible for his own actions. No amount of sardonic needling pushes a person from heroic Jedi to selfish child murderer.

 

[Mage]

Good insight there Reverend! That makes me look at the scenes in a whole new way. Thanks.

 

[Shawnster]

I think the different ways they viewed each other speaks volumes.

Annakin viewed Obi Wan as a father.
Kenobi viewed Skywalker as a brother.

 

[publiusr]

I liked Qui-Gon Jinn the best. By and large--I really don't like Jedi--they think they are more wise than they are. Mullahs for the Star Wars universe...

 

[2takesfrakes]

To coin a corny cliché ...
"You can lead a horse to water ... but can you make him drink?"

 

[USS Firefly]

I think that Obi Wan was to young and inexperienced when he started to train Anakin who was a troubled Youngling (he was to old and emotional in TPM) for him.

 

[Ithekro]

This leads to two questions than:

1. Let another Jedi be Anakin's master? Have someone else train him or at least retain him within the Jedi Order in some capacity even not being a Padawan learner.
2. Allow Anakin is go free? He could return to Tatooine, to his mother. Probably become a slave again, or he's work as child labor in an effort to buy his mother's freedom. He would still be the most Force Sensitive being in the known galaxy.

The Jedi Council considered Anakin to be too old, thus shouldn't be trained. However there was a Sith Lord that Obi-wan had just dealt with on Naboo. Yoda even says there are always two Sith. They didn't know which one they had dealt with nor where the other was. Should the Jedi not do anything with Anakin, there would be a fair chance that the remaining Sith Lord could sweep in and take Anakin as an apprentice, regardless of which Sith Lord they disposed of at Naboo. This might have been one question, aside from it being Qui-Gon's dying request, to have Kenobi train Anakin Skywalker as a Jedi. If they don't gab this highly Force Sensitive boy now, the Sith may do so and use him against them (though that happened anyway as Yoda feared).

I am not sure the Jedi would have been able to avoid their fate at that point. It would take a very skilled master to quell Anakin's potential emotional attachments (because they likely wouldn't give in to him and bring his mother to the temple, nor is it likely they could have prevented how Anakin felt about Padme once encountering her again), and if they cast him off, Palpatine would have swept in on him as soon as possible.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Or was it just some odd writing for the movie and just best forgotten?

Lucas' writing was such that he wouldn't connect the dots, so much, as shoehorn them together. And he left it to other writers in the comics and Clone Wars to sort it all out and give their conflicted relationship the gravitas and balance the prequels should've had.

 

[Reverend]

I am not sure the Jedi would have been able to avoid their fate at that point. It would take a very skilled master to quell Anakin's potential emotional attachments (because they likely wouldn't give in to him and bring his mother to the temple, nor is it likely they could have prevented how Anakin felt about Padme once encountering her again), and if they cast him off, Palpatine would have swept in on him as soon as possible.

It actually occurred to me a while ago that a lot (though not necessarily all) of this could have been avoided if Padme had just put a bunch of money in the hands of some envoy and told them "go to this junk shop on Tatooine and buy his slave's freedom, then bring her back here. There's a nice estate in the lake country I think she'll like."
It wouldn't eliminate the problem of Anakin's attachment to her, but it should have at least quieted his separation anxiety and guilt if her knew she was free, safe and happy on a paradise planet.

I actually find it hard to justify why something like this didn't happen. Given that Naboo indirectly owes it's freedom to the actions of Shmi & Anakin it seems the very least that they could do. It seems the main reason why she stayed on Tatooine is because they needed the Lars connection.

That's not to say that it would have solved all the problems. I'm sure Sidious would have found a way to use her to nudge Anakin down the dark path, one way or another.

 

[USS Firefly]

1. Let another Jedi be Anakin's master? Have someone else train him or at least retain him within the Jedi Order in some capacity even not being a Padawan learner.

What about a master from the council, the have presumably al traint a Padawan to knighthood.

 

[Prax]

Obi-Wan was the man for the job. Anakin was going to become Vader no matter who trained him. Anakin and Obi-Wan have a relationship, that yeah, they get frustrated with each other sometimes, but that's what happens when you're constantly around each other. Real brothers would bicker a lot more.

Lucas' writing was such that he wouldn't connect the dots, so much, as shoehorn them together. And he left it to other writers in the comics and Clone Wars to sort it all out and give their conflicted relationship the gravitas and balance the prequels should've had.

Examples? I think the EU often made it worse, or misunderstood the relationship. In Labyrinth of Evil, Anakin's really nasty to Obi-Wan, and Lords it over Obi Wan when he's wrong. In TCW, their relationship is much the same, but Anakin's voice is so different and cavalier. Also, Lucas was heavily involved in the writing for TCW.

 

[LJones41]

Obi-Wan was the man for the job. Anakin was going to become Vader no matter who trained him. Anakin and Obi-Wan have a relationship, that yeah, they get frustrated with each other sometimes, but that's what happens when you're constantly around each other. Real brothers would bicker a lot more.

That is usually the attitude that many people have about Anakin, because we know what his fate would be, thanks to the Original Trilogy.

But some fans never consider what Anakin's fate could have been if he had made different choices . . . or if someone other than Obi-Wan had been his Jedi teacher. Especially someone like Qui-Gon Jinn.

I think Obi-Wan would have been a good teacher for someone with a personality similar to his - conformist, slightly conservative. But from a certain point of view, I think he made a mistake in trying to transform Anakin into an ideal or by-the-book Jedi.

If you look at Obi-Wan's relationship with Qui-Gon, it seemed a bit similar to Anakin's relationship with him. Obi-Wan had never really listened to what Qui-Gon had to say about the Force, anymore than Anakin had bothered to listen to him. Not really. Despite Qui-Gon's teachings, Obi-Wan usually ignored him and clung to the Order's more orthodox teachings and rules. Only during those later years on Tatooine was Obi-Wan willing to open his mind to what Qui-Gon's ghost had to say. I find it ironic that despite his teachings to Obi-Wan when he was alive, Qui-Gon never really tried to mold his padawan into his image the way Obi-Wan tried to mold Anakin.

I don't think Obi-Wan was ready to become a Jedi mentor when Anakin joined the Order. Although he was not responsible for Anakin's choices in life, I do not believe Obi-Wan was a good teacher/mentor during the PT period.

 

[Prax]

I think we all agree Qui-Gonn would have been a better teacher, but he died. Most of the other Jedi mentors we see are even more conformist than Obi-Wan. Anakin got Obi-Wan to loosen up a little, and Obi-Wan got Anakin to take things more seriously once in a while.

 

[Ithekro]

The other basic problem is that throughout this situation you will have Palpatine involved.

 

[LJones41]

Most of the other Jedi mentors we see are even more conformist than Obi-Wan. Anakin got Obi-Wan to loosen up a little, and Obi-Wan got Anakin to take things more seriously once in a while.

You really think so? I don't.

Palpatine or not, I don't think Obi-Wan was ready or suited to be Anakin's teacher.