Was Kirk supposed to be a Lt. Commander?

[Arpy]

Going by the cuff insignia. He was called "captain" because that's what you call anyone of any rank in command of a ship? I don't think the Enterprise was supposed to be the "flagship" of the Federation at first. Again, flagships are the command ships of fleets, and the Enterprise was on its own. A lieutenant commander could have commanded the Enterprise if it was initially a smaller ship. A corvette? That would allow for larger ships in the Trek-verse, like Franz Joseph's Federation Class and Diane Duane's Defender Class, without getting too fan-wanky, for some of us.

 

[J.T.B.]

Going by the cuff insignia. He was called "captain" because that's what you call anyone of any rank in command of a ship?

No. His rank was officially entered into his court-martial record as captain.

 

[Arpy]

Sure, plus commander Spock also wore lieutenant's stripes, as did Captain Pike. I assume they're futuristic rank systems that ENT/TNG opted out of, but I wonder what that show would have been like.

 

[Timo]

Not all that futuristic - just missing one stripe.

Except, of course, in the specific case of Kirk, who should be wearing three solid stripes rather than two solid and one "half". But he still is Captain by rank in "Court Martial" and the like, not just by position - so possibly Starfleet corrected the illogic of today's braid code and added the missing three-and-half, either just dropping Captain down to that slot or then introducing some sort of Junior Captain rank for the "lower" braid or some sort of Senior (Fleet?) Captain rank for the "upper". Whether this only happened in TOS where we see the funny braid, or in all the eras (and we just miss the occurrences), we don't know.

Kirk need not have been Captain by rank back when he wore obvious Commander braid in the pilot, tho. He is but a kid, after all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sure, plus commander Spock also wore lieutenant's stripes, as did Captain Pike. I assume they're futuristic rank systems that ENT/TNG opted out of, but I wonder what that show would have been like.

Why would the show be different?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always just went with Starfleet being a bit different than today's navy and having a different rank stripe system. But I like to think that a fleet captain had three full stripes and was positioned below a commodore and above a captain.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Going by the cuff insignia.

No. That was the "cuff insignia" of a captain by rank.

If you have any doubt, see TMP.

 

[scotpens]

Link:
Franz Joseph's Starfleet Technical Manual, Insignia and Rank

 

[Arpy]

No. That was the "cuff insignia" of a captain by rank.
If you have any doubt, see TMP.

Again, I know that 2 1/2 stripes is a captain in TOS. Just as 2 stripes was a captain in "The Cage." I'm saying, what if it wasn't meant to be? What if it did mean lieutenant commander, and the show was about a smaller ship and a less experienced officer at first, but that was dropped? (See also lithium crystals and UESPA.)

Why would the show be different?

I wonder if they made that more of a point, guest stars and ships might have been different. Commodore Decker in "The Doomsday Machine" might have been Captain Decker. The fleet of Constitutions in "The Ultimate Computer" might have been a fleet of [something like] Federation Class ships. Those would have been the standard Starfleet cruisers to the Enterprise's corvette. Captain Pike wouldn't have been "promoted" to Starfleet-peculiar rank of Fleet Captain but himself to commander or captain. Maybe the D-7's always outgun the Enterprise, putting it in a more precarious position on the frontier, and Kirk is having to prove himself to higher officers, or learn a thing or two on his ascent to captain-hood by series' end. Also, it would help in the movies when you have a ship with three captains (one downgraded from admiral) and four full commanders...and that's Alpha Shift...who the hell's Beta & Gamma??

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wonder if they made that more of a point, guest stars and ships might have been different. Commodore Decker in "The Doomsday Machine" might have been Captain Decker. The fleet of Constitutions in "The Ultimate Computer" might have been a fleet of [something like] Federation Class ships. Those would have been the standard Starfleet cruisers to the Enterprise's corvette. Captain Pike wouldn't have been "promoted" to Starfleet-peculiar rank of Fleet Captain but himself to commander or captain. Maybe the D-7's always outgun the Enterprise, putting it in a more precarious position on the frontier, and Kirk is having to prove himself to higher officers, or learn a thing or two on his ascent to captain-hood by series' end. Also, it would help in the movies when you have a ship with three captains (one downgraded from admiral) and four full commanders...and that's Alpha Shift...who the hell's Beta & Gamma??

None of which would change the actual content of the series. They'd still use the Enterprise model to represent other ships, because the budget would be the same. The D-7 would remain equal to the Connie. Kirk would still be the guy in charge who does his own thing to save his crew and ship. They aren't going to change his role and give him a new arc. He's the captain of the ship no matter what his rank.
His position is Commanding Officer. Anyone of the same rank in his crew is still his subordinate. So in the movie era that meant Captain Spock and Captain Scott report to him.

 

[Poltargyst]

Two full stripes is a full commander not a Lt. Commander.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Two full stripes is a full commander not a Lt. Commander.

Only from Corbomite Maneuver forward. And there's a little confusion there too.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Again, I know that 2 1/2 stripes is a captain in TOS. Just as 2 stripes was a captain in "The Cage." I'm saying, what if it wasn't meant to be? What if it did mean lieutenant commander, and the show was about a smaller ship and a less experienced officer at first, but that was dropped? (See also lithium crystals and UESPA.)

Oh, I didn't get that this was part of the what-if.

Two stripes for captain didn't start until WNMHGB, by the way. Incredibly, in "The Cage," *everyone* had only one stripe, or none.

 

[Arpy]

None of which would change the actual content of the series. They'd still use the Enterprise model to represent other ships, because the budget would be the same. The D-7 would remain equal to the Connie. Kirk would still be the guy in charge who does his own thing to save his crew and ship. They aren't going to change his role and give him a new arc. He's the captain of the ship no matter what his rank.
His position is Commanding Officer. Anyone of the same rank in his crew is still his subordinate. So in the movie era that meant Captain Spock and Captain Scott report to him.

Possibly. Or the different series bible would lead them to write different stories.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Possibly. Or the different series bible would lead them to write different stories.

Why would they have a different series bible?

 

[Arpy]

Why would they have a different series bible?

Why not?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why not?

Because the one they have works, even with the CO being a lower rank.

 

[Kor]

I agree. The stories would have been exactly the same.

Kor

 

[Arpy]

Because the one they have works, even with the CO being a lower rank.

I think that's beside the point. Obviously it worked; Trek's been around for 50 years and will be for more into the foreseeable future. I'm wondering what-if? I'm wondering who came up with the original rank insignia and why? And I think that if he were a lieutenant commander, and they kept that, then the show would have gone in different directions, because they'd have chosen to do so for a reason, and writers/fans would want to address it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think that's beside the point. Obviously it worked; Trek's been around for 50 years and will be for more into the foreseeable future. I'm wondering what-if? I'm wondering who came up with the original rank insignia and why? And I think that if he were a lieutenant commander, and they kept that, then the show would have gone in different directions, because they'd have chosen to do so for a reason, and writers/fans would want to address it.

I assume the costume designer did. But it's unlikely he would have made any decision on Kirk's rank, That would have come from Roddenberry. And obviously between the Cage and WNMHGB is was decided that the Captain needed an insignia that set him apart from the rest of the crew.
And why do you think Kirk's insignia is that of a "Lt. Commander"? Mitchell is identified as a Lt. Commander in dialog. He has one stripe.

KIRK: Captain's log, Star date 1313.8. Add to official losses, Doctor Elizabeth Dehner. Be it noted she gave her life in performance of her duty. Lieutenant Commander Gary Mitchell, same notation.

Kirk is the Commanding Officer. Changing his rank doesn't change his position or authority, So that would not make the show go in a different direction.