Tuvok - the first full time Vulcan

[Stag]

As a follow up to my Janeway thread, I am starting this discussion on everyone's favorite Delta quadrant Vulcan, Tuvok (aka Tuvie to some unmentioned mods).

Tuvok was truly a ground breaking character for TREK. Why? He was the first regular full blooded Vulcan main character, he illustrated that Vulcan had diverse population - not just green tinted caucasions, he is not a sciences Vulcan but a Tactical Officer.

It is very easy to gloss over Tim Russ' magnificent crafting of this character which could have gone so wrong if not handled correctly (see T'Pol). In my opinion Russ played Tuvok very much like Spock of early season 1 TOS. Stoic with a dry sense of humor. He was not the totally emotionless stoics portrayed by some guest characters. Russ remembered that Vulcans had emotions, they were just controlled and put under lock and key I always got the sense that they were there somewhere with Tuvok.

Additionally his relationship with Janeway was very reminiscent of the Spock-Kirk dynamic.

So what say you? Tuvok, a worthy Vulcan?

 

[Lynx]

In my opinion, Tuvok is the best Vulcan on Star Trek.

No, I'm not gonna take anything away from good, old Spock. It's a close call between him and Tuvok. But Tuvok wins.

As pointed out in the post above, he's the first regular full-blooded Vulcan. And yes, Tim Russ' superb acting did also make Tuvok the excellent character that he is. I also agree on the Janeway-Tuvok relationship and the comparision between the Spock-Kirk relationshp.

Tuvok a worthy Vulcan? Yes, of course he is!

And one of Star Trek's best characters as well!

 

[rocketscientist]

I'm afraid that I disagree with the contention that Tuvok was very ground-breaking. The only thing ground-breaking about him, imo, was his skin color. Initially, that was weird for me, but after awhile it didn't matter. Tim Russ did a nice job playing a Vulcan and we did learn a couple of new things about their culture. That said, imo, all he was doing was following in the footsteps of Spock. Of the two, imo, Spock had a lot more charm and character than Tuvok did. Also, the Janeway-Tuvok relationship was just a rehash of Kirk-Spock all over again.

So, imo, nothing really original (besides skin color and a few interesting tidbits) was really added by Tuvok and he wasn't as good as Spock. That said, I do think Russ did a great job playing him and I don't blame him for not measuring up to Nimoy. That's a very hard act to follow. Also, I didn't care that much if I'd seen all that before with Spock on the original show. It was great to see a Vulcan, a well played Vulcan at that, again in a ST spin-off. I liked the Klingons, but I was really getting tired of them!

 

[Kio]

He was the first regular full blooded Vulcan main character, he illustrated that Vulcan had diverse population - not just green tinted caucasions, he is not a sciences Vulcan but a Tactical Officer.

He was the first and only major Vulcan character we saw for 7 seasons. There's no other Vulcan character whose personality was explored as deeply. Nimoy did a great job with Spock, but Russ really took the ball and ran with it.

Russ remembered that Vulcans had emotions, they were just controlled and put under lock and key I always got the sense that they were there somewhere with Tuvok.

I also felt that. He'd let a little tenderness slip when he was around Janeway, and a little annoyance slip around Neelix.

Additionally his relationship with Janeway was very reminiscent of the Spock-Kirk dynamic.

I didn't see that bit at all. Spock was a foil for Kirk's red-blooded manliness, if you will. He was also a handy plot device used to bring questions about the nature of humanity to the fore. Voyager had the EMH and Seven fill that spot.

 

[Navaros]

I don't think Tuvok is a worthy Vulcan because I notice plenty of times where Tuvok is showing emotion when he's not supposed to be due to Russ' (bad IMO) acting, whereas Nimoy never ever made that mistake. Definitely Nimoy/Spock is in a whole 'nother stratosphere of acting mastery than Russ/Tuvok.

Example: The episode where Tuvok is taking care of children who age in reverse. Clearly Russ/Tuvok comes across as annoyed when they are running around instead of being quiet like they are supposed to. As a Vulcan, there should have been zero evidence of him being annoyed.

And this is just one example out of tons in the series of emotion being displayed by Tuvok the Vulcan when it should not. As Kio said, he also did this alot around Neelix. But worthy Vulcans don't "slip".

 

[Timo]

How so? Spock frequently acted bemused or alarmed when the situation would have called for a human to act that way, and raised his voice in tense situations. Sarek cried a lot. T'Pau was chronically annoyed. Saavik was jumpy. Valeris was smug. Many of the Vulcans of ENT were argumentative and easily excited.

"Slipping" seems rather standard for all Vulcans save perhaps for special Kolinahr Adepts or other such weirdoes. It's not a matter of letting show the obviously existing emotions, it's a matter of not allowing the emotions to affect the behavior and the actions. Sometimes the latter calls for maintaining a stoic face, of course, but not always.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mrs Paris]

Spock often did show emotion. Lots of it, we've seen him smile, laugh, and cry regularly.

Tuvok has done so too, but it was when he wasn't in his right mind, like in Riddles and Meld

 

[rocketscientist]

He was the first regular full blooded Vulcan main character, he illustrated that Vulcan had diverse population - not just green tinted caucasions, he is not a sciences Vulcan but a Tactical Officer.

He was the first and only major Vulcan character we saw for 7 seasons. There's no other Vulcan character whose personality was explored as deeply. Nimoy did a great job with Spock, but Russ really took the ball and ran with it.

Who cares if Russ got 4 more seasons on VOY than Nimoy did (especially since the original ST seasons were longer)? Spock got 6 feature films and a TNG episode. The fact is, Tuvok didn't introduce nearly as many elements of Vulcan culture as Spock did. Nimoy was the guy who set the standard, who introduced the mind-meld, the nerve-pinch, katra, Surak, etc. What did Tuvok contribute? A meditative candle and that logic game? Not so much imo. Finally, I don't think Tuvok's personality was explored as deeply as Spock's was in ST and the films. I felt Spock, in the end, came out as much more interesting and deeper character.

I really didn't think that Tuvok was as developed as Spock or as strong a character. It's really not Russ' fault though, I blame the writers and producers. I wanted to see more of Tuvok, but they tended to focus more on Janeway, Seven, and the EMH. I don't blame them, writers tend to gravitate towards the characters they like more.


And who cares if Tuvok was full-blooded? What difference did that make between him and Spock? None that I could see. If anything, Spock's insecurity wrt his human half initially made him a better Vulcan than most vulcans. He would've achieved Kolinahr, the final perfect state of Vulcan logic, if it wasn't for V'Ger showing up at the last minute. Tuvok, on the other hand, had a huge crush on a girl at school, something that was shameful to a Vulcan. To my knowledge, that never ever happened with Spock, who had human genes as well. Then there's Spock's pronouncements of Vulcan pacifism. I never quite understood how Tuvok became a tactical officer in light of Vulcan philosophy. I can only surmise that Vulcans find it logical to defend themselves.

So who is the better Vulcan? Spock all the way imo.

Tuvok may have caught the ball from Spock, but he didn't carry it all the way downfield for a touchdown.

Russ remembered that Vulcans had emotions, they were just controlled and put under lock and key I always got the sense that they were there somewhere with Tuvok.

I also felt that. He'd let a little tenderness slip when he was around Janeway, and a little annoyance slip around Neelix.

Something Spock did all the time in ST and the ST films. Again, Russ chanelling Nimoy.

Additionally his relationship with Janeway was very reminiscent of the Spock-Kirk dynamic.

I didn't see that bit at all. Spock was a foil for Kirk's red-blooded manliness, if you will. He was also a handy plot device used to bring questions about the nature of humanity to the fore. Voyager had the EMH and Seven fill that spot.

[/quote]

The mutual affection between Janeway and Tuvok was totally reminiscent of Kirk and Spock. I totally saw it.

I don't know what they should've done with Tuvok. Maybe it was impossible for the writers to really make him very different from Spock. IMO, beyond the skin color, the details of his history, and his position on the ship (which I still think doesn't jibe well with what was introduced about Vulcans in ST and TNG, I'm not sure GR would've liked that aspect of Tuvok's character), there wasn't much that was significantly different between him and Spock.

Again, I didn't care that much. I liked Tuvok a lot and I really wish they'd done more with him. He was certainly a better character than Chakotay, Kim, Kes, and Neelix and Russ did a fine job playing him. He deserved more development. I just didn't think he was the best Vulcan in ST or that original a character.

 

[rocketscientist]

I don't think Tuvok is a worthy Vulcan because I notice plenty of times where Tuvok is showing emotion when he's not supposed to be due to Russ' (bad IMO) acting, whereas Nimoy never ever made that mistake. Definitely Nimoy/Spock is in a whole 'nother stratosphere of acting mastery than Russ/Tuvok.

Example: The episode where Tuvok is taking care of children who age in reverse. Clearly Russ/Tuvok comes across as annoyed when they are running around instead of being quiet like they are supposed to. As a Vulcan, there should have been zero evidence of him being annoyed.

And this is just one example out of tons in the series of emotion being displayed by Tuvok the Vulcan when it should not. As Kio said, he also did this alot around Neelix. But worthy Vulcans don't "slip".

I have to disagree with you. Spock displayed subtle emotion all the time. You could hear him raising his voice slightly to McCoy and Scotty in Gamesters of Triskelion when they were objecting to his course of action, for example.

In STTMP, after pursuing Kolinahr, Spock was in full Vulcan mode. He doesn't display much emotion at all (until after his mind-meld with V'Ger), completely appropriate for a character that was trying to purge his emotions forever.

Russ was taking a page from Nimoy with Tuvok, displaying bits of humor, affection, and annoyance (i.e. Neelix). He did a great job, but the fact is, we'd seen it all before and done better, imo.

 

[rocketscientist]

Spock often did show emotion. Lots of it, we've seen him smile, laugh, and cry regularly.

Tuvok has done so too, but it was when he wasn't in his right mind, like in Riddles and Meld

Um, I'm sorry, but Spock never ever did smile, laugh, or cry regularly. He lost his marbles like Tuvok did due to illness and circumstances. In his right mind, he never ever cried or laughed and smiling was confined, at the very most, to a very slight smirk when he was needling Bones or Kirk (see TWOK when he stuck Saavik in the center seat to take the Enterprise out of drydock).

It's generally a fine line that Nimoy and Russ were walking, keeping their characters very tightly controlled and letting only a very little bit of emotion show volumes. That's the charm of the Vulcans, and why they're my favorites.

 

[rocketscientist]

How so? Spock frequently acted bemused or alarmed when the situation would have called for a human to act that way, and raised his voice in tense situations. Sarek cried a lot. T'Pau was chronically annoyed. Saavik was jumpy. Valeris was smug. Many of the Vulcans of ENT were argumentative and easily excited.

"Slipping" seems rather standard for all Vulcans save perhaps for special Kolinahr Adepts or other such weirdoes. It's not a matter of letting show the obviously existing emotions, it's a matter of not allowing the emotions to affect the behavior and the actions. Sometimes the latter calls for maintaining a stoic face, of course, but not always.

Timo Saloniemi

A couple things:
1. Sarek did not "cry a lot" until he was very elderly and afflicted with a Vulcan form of Alzheimer's.

2. I agree with you wrt Vulcans not letting their emotions guide their actions, but I disagree with you regarding it being ok for them to show emotions. I think it's pretty clear that their society approves of showing great emotions the way humans do. There are certainly displays of emotion in their society, i.e. Spock thanking Sarek by saying "most kind father", "live long and prosper," Sarek and Amanda touching fingers (not hands), etc., but it is all considerbly much less than what humans do, including crying, laughing, grinning, hugging, kissing, etc. in public.

 

[Stag]

In early TOS eps including 'The Cage'. Spock very much showed emotion - he smiled evey now and again, ok maybe it was more of a grin, and he certainly did alot of yelling as in the transporter room during 'The Cage' --- "THE WOMEN!!"

 

[Mrs Paris]

In early TOS eps including 'The Cage'. Spock very much showed emotion - he smiled evey now and again, ok maybe it was more of a grin, and he certainly did alot of yelling as in the transporter room during 'The Cage' --- "THE WOMEN!!"

yep, and when they transported to the planet and he saw those wiggling plant things...he smiled then, and he certainly had all his marbles that time

 

[kimc]

I like both Tuvok and Spock. However, I can see the differences between them. First off, Spock was a scientist and while perfectly capable of defending himself was mainly a man of peace. It would be just like him to open up negotiations with the Klingons to disappear to the Roumulan home world. Peace between peoples was him main motivation.

Tuvok was more of a cynic. He believed in defending yourself first and in negotiating peace from a position of strength. This was an interesting juxtaposition to Chakotay's character. As shown during "Basics" Chakotay was more Spock-like in wanting to make peace with the natives. He also wanted to give B'Elanna a second chance after she decked Carey while Tuvok was all for throwing her in the brig.

This dynamic between Tuvok and Chakotay and their friendships with Janeway was a largely untapped treasure, imo. Janeway had the warrior on one side and the peacemaker on the other - which would she listen to and when?

Anyway, to answer the original questions yes I believe Tuvok to be a worthy Vulcan. Comparing him to Spock though to me is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both Vulcans but they're quite different.

 

[rocketscientist]

In early TOS eps including 'The Cage'. Spock very much showed emotion - he smiled evey now and again, ok maybe it was more of a grin, and he certainly did alot of yelling as in the transporter room during 'The Cage' --- "THE WOMEN!!"

Uh, that isn't very applicable. Spock's character was not totally set in the pilot episode The Cage. I'm sure you're aware of that.

Find another example of Spock crying, laughing, etc. in any other ST episode beyond the pilot where he wasn't traumatized (TMP), infected by spores (This Side of Paradise), distorted water molecules (The Naked Time), or thrown back in time (i.e. the episode where he met Zarabeth in Sarpeidon's past).

 

[Mr. Fergy]

Tuvok was the best character on Voyager, IMHO. Also Tim Russ did talk to Leonard Nimoy regularity about the Character and the Vulcan race. personally, I've see Russ at cons 3 times over the years, he's a good guy, IMHO.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I much preferred T'Pol, and Blalock as a actor.

 

[rocketscientist]

In early TOS eps including 'The Cage'. Spock very much showed emotion - he smiled evey now and again, ok maybe it was more of a grin, and he certainly did alot of yelling as in the transporter room during 'The Cage' --- "THE WOMEN!!"

yep, and when they transported to the planet and he saw those wiggling plant things...he smiled then, and he certainly had all his marbles that time

That's the same episode, The Menagerie/Cage. Again, that was the very first episode of ST, a pilot, that was initially not supposed to be shown. The conception for Spock's character in that episode had key differences from how Spock appeared in all subsequent episodes of ST.

Again, find another example that's more applicable.

 

[rocketscientist]

Tuvok was the best character on Voyager, IMHO. Also Tim Russ did talk to Leonard Nimoy regularity about the Character and the Vulcan race. personally, I've see Russ at cons 3 times over the years, he's a good guy, IMHO.

He did talk to Nimoy? I didn't know that!

That's pretty cool.

 

[rocketscientist]

I like both Tuvok and Spock. However, I can see the differences between them. First off, Spock was a scientist and while perfectly capable of defending himself was mainly a man of peace. It would be just like him to open up negotiations with the Klingons to disappear to the Roumulan home world. Peace between peoples was him main motivation.

Tuvok was more of a cynic. He believed in defending yourself first and in negotiating peace from a position of strength. This was an interesting juxtaposition to Chakotay's character. As shown during "Basics" Chakotay was more Spock-like in wanting to make peace with the natives. He also wanted to give B'Elanna a second chance after she decked Carey while Tuvok was all for throwing her in the brig.

In thinking about it, I think you're right. Tuvok did seem to be more cynical than Spock. That is a pretty good difference between the two. I seem to recall an episode where Tuvok was discussing Spock's politics with Janeway (was it regarding the Klingons?), and I think he mentioned that he initially disagreed with him. It seemed that Tuvok and Valeris had similar views of the Klingons. Would Tuvok have entered her conspiracy if he'd gotten the opportunity? Man, that could've been a hell of a flashback episode!

This dynamic between Tuvok and Chakotay and their friendships with Janeway was a largely untapped treasure, imo. Janeway had the warrior on one side and the peacemaker on the other - which would she listen to and when?

I wouldn't characterize Tuvok as a warrior at all. A cop, yes, a soldier, absolutely not. The Klingons are the ones who see themselves as warriors, not the Vulcans.

But, wrt that relationship, yeah, it was pretty untapped, like a lot of Voyager's potential imo. It's a real shame, Chakotay's best scenes (in the end, his only good ones) were discussing strategy with Janeway. I always wondered why if Tuvok is an old friend, a Vulcan, and her third officer, why he wasn't privy to those discussions as well. I always thought that was kind of a slap in the face to Tuvok. They touched on Chakotay believing that Tuvok resented him and Tuvok denying it. They could've done a lot more with that Janeway-Chakotay-Tuvok interplay than they did, which was virtually nothing. If they had, Chakotay and Tuvok would've come out as better characters (especially Chakotay).

Anyway, to answer the original questions yes I believe Tuvok to be a worthy Vulcan. Comparing him to Spock though to me is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both Vulcans but they're quite different.

I think Tuvok's a worthy Vulcan too, but I'd say comparing him to Spock is more like comparing an orange with a lemon.