TNG humans and arrogance

[at Quark's]

Q, in Q Who:

Q: Oh, the arrogance. They don't have a clue as to what's out here.

The Traveler in Where No One Has Gone Before

TRAVELLER: What wonderful arrogance. There is no record because we have not visited you before.

The lifeform in Home Soil

VOICE: Not yet. You are still too arrogant. Too primitive. Come back three centuries. Perhaps then we trust.

So that's three very different species accusing us of arrogance, albeit for different reasons. The Q because we pretend to be ready while we have no idea what's out there, the Traveler because we think ourselves central to the galactic setting (I suppose) and those Home Soil aliens presumably because of our preconceived notions about that 'intelligent life' looks like. At least 2 of those could be considered significantly more advanced than humanity, even when one of those is capricious at best - but the other seems benign.

So, could there be truth to that claim? Are humans (at least in the TNG universe) more arrogant than they ought to be?

Or is this just the 'Picard effect'? (Picard himself is accused of arrogance quite some times in the series.)

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

It might also be a pointed criticism of Trek fans:

Q = We claim to like Trek, but fail to recognize/reject the natural outgrowth of realized Trek ideals.

Traveler = We believe the parts of Trek we like should take precedence over everything everyone else likes.

Home Soil = We think we know what good Trek should be because of our own ideas about what makes a show/movie good in general.

 

[Frontis]

Q is much more arrogant than any human.

 

[fireproof78]

So, could there be truth to that claim? Are humans (at least in the TNG universe) more arrogant than they ought to

Yes.

 

[Riley]

I'd agree that the Picard and Crew of the later seasons (three onward) were indeed quite arrogant. Picard was the worst, condescending to people of faith quite often and giving pompous moral speeches to demonstrate his superiority rather than to teach a lesson (unlike, say, Kirk).

Picard certainly wasn't the only offender. Consider Riker's arrogance when Ro came aboard, Geordi's awful treatment of Scotty, Bev Crusher's disdain for the Prime Directive when it didn't suit her beliefs, her son's arrogance, especially around non-Starfleet types (the non-Starfleet captain in "Final Mission") and any number of examples from Troi and Geordi. The only member of the command crew who wasn't a pompous ass was Worf.

 

[Arpy]

I think to some aliens the idea that we went out beyond our own borders is proof of arrogance. The idea of being curious and optimistic and gregarious even is arrogance. How do we know we’re ready for what we find? Why do we presume that others would want to meet us or open relations with us? How do we know we’re not killing beings that we don’t recognize as life and don’t deserve to be killed ourselves for some unknown reason?

But then, some of these suggest that there is some perfection point we should reach before going out, some perfect protocol to develop before doing anything. I think that is arrogance on the part of others. Self-loathing on the part of the writers.

The Federation didn’t enslave the Pakleds despite their inferior intellect and technological knowhow. They didn’t try to wipe out the Borg despite the Borg’s genocidal bent. Is it reasonable to assume others would be or expect any different from us? That they would think us arrogant for going out today hi?

 

[Alexander Corrino]

The condescending and arrogant way in which Jean-Luc treats even fellow humans from the past sometimes shows that there's at least SOME truth to the arrogance claim. Look at how irritated he is with Offenhouse. Granted, the ship is in a tense situation with the Romulans and Offenhouse isn't exactly subtle about his demands, but I have a feeling Jean-Luc wouldn't have been much friendlier if he had met Offenhouse while the Enterprise was on a routine delivery mission or something. His 'humanity has eeeevoooooolveeeeeed' attitude does come across as rather condescending at times. And yeah, he is definitely more than just arrogant in "Q Who" when he's all like "your help is NOT required" towards Q. Oh boy, does THAT one come back to haunt him.

I think part of this is unique to TNG in particular tho - the show went out of its way to portray humans as "evolved" and "beyond this and that", especially in its early seasons, almost every episodes beats you over the head with "WE ARE BETTER NOW" and whatnot, and with a premise like that it's easy for arrogance to creep into things. And since Jean-Luc in particular is always portrayed as a pillar of morality (by human standards, anyway, which he often forgets, human standards are not also alien standards) and a poster boy for meaningful speeches, he carries a lot of arrogance with him by default.

 

[somebuddyX]

I feel that way about Season 1 and a lot of Season 2, so yes. TOS people wanted to be better than they believed we were. TNG people felt they were better than they we were. That lack of aspiration brought arrogance that carried over to encounters with the Ferengi, the Selay, the Antican, Q, and those 20th century people.

 

[knightgrace]

There is another aspect to this. It is summed up in one word:

History.

At the start of TNG, humans have been going out into space, specifically interstellar space for 300 years...

If actual human history is any guide, then the first fifty years would have been the roughest. In other words a very steep learning curve. This means mass death events - a high percentage of ship losses and Colonial losses.

But the point humans survived. How many other species didn't?

By the time of the Earth-Romulan war, at least a hundred years had passed. Humans learned again don't listen to the passivity players. They also learned to think first, then act.

After 300 hundred years we should have been more like the Confederation in Picard season 3...

But weren't.

 

[Qonundrum]

Q is much more arrogant than any human.

I suspect it's all relative. While we're told that Q was kicked out of the continuum and other things, despite those moments, Q's arrogance was always a funhouse mirror to Picard just as much as the Borg collective was a warped reflection of the Federation. Q was thankfully never a Metron or some other stick figure telling us how grand humans will be in the future now have a lollipop like how TOS did a dozen or so times.

It's also another Q who comes in to claim that our Q was kicked out (Deja Q). The fun part, at least until Voyager, was the mystifying and otherworldly nature of their Continuum, and their keeping anything relational to us to a bare minimum. Headcanon allows the possibility that Q and Q were part of a feverdream, or a ruse since they were in the shuttle while discussing and communication is possible between shuttle and main ship, or something else completely different - though new canon to embrace and alter it becomes a quagmire way too quickly.

 

[Qonundrum]

I think to some aliens the idea that we went out beyond our own borders is proof of arrogance. The idea of being curious and optimistic and gregarious even is arrogance. How do we know we’re ready for what we find? Why do we presume that others would want to meet us or open relations with us? How do we know we’re not killing beings that we don’t recognize as life and don’t deserve to be killed ourselves for some unknown reason?

Dealing with complete strangers is always inherently risky, if one doesn't know everything about them in order to have the smoothest of first contacts. "First Contact" definitely explores this to a fantastic degree, though it begs a bunch of fun questions too. Nothing is in a vacuum, except for the dust bunnies sucked up from the carpet, but those don't breed in a vacuum either.

But then, some of these suggest that there is some perfection point we should reach before going out, some perfect protocol to develop before doing anything. I think that is arrogance on the part of others. Self-loathing on the part of the writers.

Fascinating! And very possible for some stories, certainly.

The Federation didn’t enslave the Pakleds despite their inferior intellect and technological knowhow.

Very true. The Pakleds did have other advantages making up for that, but were little other than glorified space pirates. I rather love how Lower Decks built on them...

They didn’t try to wipe out the Borg despite the Borg’s genocidal bent.

Apart from "I, Borg" with the aborted attempt to have a feedback loop they believed would wipe out the collective by thinking themselves to death, replaced instead by giving a de-culted Hugh back to the Collective and hope that the rest don't re-cult/de-emotion him prior to him let everyone know that it's okay to be whatever, there's probably another message in that episode but I doubt it as all we got was the jumbled mixed-bag mess of "Descent".

Is it reasonable to assume others would be or expect any different from us? That they would think us arrogant for going out today hi?

Perception is a wonderful thing, or at least when it isn't a terrible thing. It's definitely why captains need their coffee or tea before going out for the day and you'd hope the others on the other side had theirs.

 

[at Quark's]

Q is much more arrogant than any human.

So it would seem, at least at first sight.

Then again, if we go back to the original meaning of the word arrogant, it's claiming that which you're not entitled to ('to arrogate'). From their point of view we may well be arrogant - claiming we're ready for things we really aren't yet, and therefore have 'no right to'. On the other hand, we don't know their origin story.

 

[Arpy]

Early TNG humans were better. I mean look at us, and look at them. I think some of Picard’s anger is from disappointment at how long it took, and how much catastrophe, before we got our shit together. Offenhouse was a dick out of any Wall Street firm today who couldn’t give a shit if he’s funding a genocide abroad or at home so long as he felt free and self-actualized in the Hell he called home.

I’d gladly take the 24th Century over today any day of the week.

 

[Frontis]

So it would seem, at least at first sight.

Then again, if we go back to the original meaning of the word arrogant, it's claiming that which you're not entitled to ('to arrogate'). From their point of view we may well be arrogant - claiming we're ready for things we really aren't yet, and therefore have 'no right to'. On the other hand, we don't know their origin story.

Well, Q thinks he is god, not many human beings do that.

 

[Frontis]

I suspect it's all relative. While we're told that Q was kicked out of the continuum and other things, despite those moments, Q's arrogance was always a funhouse mirror to Picard just as much as the Borg collective was a warped reflection of the Federation. Q was thankfully never a Metron or some other stick figure telling us how grand humans will be in the future now have a lollipop like how TOS did a dozen or so times.

It's also another Q who comes in to claim that our Q was kicked out (Deja Q). The fun part, at least until Voyager, was the mystifying and otherworldly nature of their Continuum, and their keeping anything relational to us to a bare minimum. Headcanon allows the possibility that Q and Q were part of a feverdream, or a ruse since they were in the shuttle while discussing and communication is possible between shuttle and main ship, or something else completely different - though new canon to embrace and alter it becomes a quagmire way too quickly.

Well, some people think Q is funny, I think he is just a jerk.

 

[suarezguy]

So, could there be truth to that claim? Are humans (at least in the TNG universe) more arrogant than they ought to be?

Q and the Traveler's comments seem more like being about naivety which isn't incompatible with, can be with, lead to arrogance but especially with Traveler saying it in I think an affectionate tone feels more like something different. And while some humility can be good, even with someone powerful as Q important it's not good to be as humble as Q tends to expect, demand nor is it unreasonable to be surprised, shocked by really different kinds of environments or civilizations. Picard did readily admit that they had become overconfident/complacent to think there couldn't be threats like the Borg.

Picard was the worst, condescending to people of faith quite often and giving pompous moral speeches to demonstrate his superiority rather than to teach a lesson (unlike, say, Kirk).

Kirk thought he was superior to at least some if not many he met. I think Picard only got particularly pompous/belligerent with, against those who also openly strongly belligerent.

Geordi's awful treatment of Scotty

Didn't think it was awful, it was at least reasonable annoyance/reaction to that Scotty thought he was dangerously incompetent rather than that tech had changed over 70 years.

Bev Crusher's disdain for the Prime Directive when it didn't suit her beliefs, her son's arrogance, especially around non-Starfleet types (the non-Starfleet captain in "Final Mission")

I have seen dislike for both Picard and Crusher but it does feel real unfair to think that he is too reverential to the Prime Directive and she too disdainful of it, to be offput by both attitudes, approaches.

her son's arrogance, especially around non-Starfleet types (the non-Starfleet captain in "Final Mission")

I think that was another instance of a character being belligerent/disrespectful in response to the same also coming/being from the guest character.

Viewers often complain the show had too little conflict but seem too often consider it bad, unlikeable writing of the characters when they did have it, I like that it often allowed both sides to be flawed rather than just one clearly completely right/better.

 

[suarezguy]

The condescending and arrogant way in which Jean-Luc treats even fellow humans from the past sometimes shows that there's at least SOME truth to the arrogance claim. Look at how irritated he is with Offenhouse. Granted, the ship is in a tense situation with the Romulans and Offenhouse isn't exactly subtle about his demands, but I have a feeling Jean-Luc wouldn't have been much friendlier if he had met Offenhouse while the Enterprise was on a routine delivery mission or something.

Another example of him being hostile/dismissive to another person's hostility and yes demands but while he just didn't interact with them much he wasn't hostile or dismissive to the other survivors while Data was friendly with them.

I do wish Picard had eventually met and been impressed by a Ferengi like Rom or Nog, admit he was a little too hostile to the Ferengi in general.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk thought he was superior to at least some if not many he met.

Examples?

 

[suarezguy]

Examples?

From "Errand of Mercy"

I'm used to the idea of dying, but I have no desire to die for the likes of you.

Is that's all you can do, smile?

This idiotic placidity of yours, your refusal to do anything to protect yourselves

"The Return of the Archons"

You said you wanted freedom. It's time you learned that freedom is never a gift. It has to be earned.

"A Taste of Amageddon"

I've given you back the horrors of war. The Vendikans now assume that you've broken your agreement and that you're preparing to wage real war with real weapons. They'll want do the same. Only the next attack they launch will do a lot more than count up numbers in a computer. They'll destroy cities, devastate your planet.

 

[Nerys Myk]

From "Errand of Mercy"




"The Return of the Archons"


"A Taste of Amageddon"

Not seeing "superiority" in any of those statements.