Thoughts on the Empress?

[Odo]

SPOILERS for Season 2

I enjoy Discovery, but I'll be honest - I'm kind of disappointed the Empress is sort of Michael's 'frenemy' instead of more of an arch-foe. I thought she was a great foil for Michael at the end of season 1, and that she'd be to Michael what Dukat was to Sisko or Q was to Picard. But instead, season 2 sort of established her as an ally. Of course, Dukat was allies with Sisko, before turning full crazy bad, but I don't see that panning out this way - I can't really detect an opposing agenda from her, and Michael's mother did hint that she'd sacrifice herself for Michael.

On top of that - she's a xenophobic, genocidal dictator - she ate Mirror Saru! It's just a bit jarring for me to see her so cozy with the crew now. Anyone else feel this way, or am I missing something?

 

[fireproof78]

I think the Empress and Michael have a deeply conflicted relationship.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The sooner they boot her back to the 23rd Century and Section 31, the better.

 

[Lord Garth]

SPOILERS for Season 2

I enjoy Discovery, but I'll be honest - I'm kind of disappointed the Empress is sort of Michael's 'frenemy' instead of more of an arch-foe. I thought she was a great foil for Michael at the end of season 1, and that she'd be to Michael what Dukat was to Sisko or Q was to Picard. But instead, season 2 sort of established her as an ally. Of course, Dukat was allies with Sisko, before turning full crazy bad, but I don't see that panning out this way - I can't really detect an opposing agenda from her, and Michael's mother did hint that she'd sacrifice herself for Michael.

On top of that - she's a xenophobic, genocidal dictator - she ate Mirror Saru! It's just a bit jarring for me to see her so cozy with the crew now. Anyone else feel this way, or am I missing something?

Basically you want her to be one particular way but she actually has shades of gray. As a DS9 fan, you should appreciate that. But at least you see the shades of gray. A lot of people here either can't or don't want to.

She had to be a certain way in the Mirror Universe in order to survive. She's not there now, so she's adapting to a different way of doing things.

But, at the end of the day, she didn't ask to be brought into the Prime Universe. Michael Burnham brought her there. So she should be grateful Georgiou hasn't been a problem because if she had been, it would've been a problem that Burnham brought on herself.

 

[XCV330]

Her place in the 31st century doesn't make much sense. If this is about building a new Federation, she almost certainly is going have very different goals in mind. From her viewpoint, a galactic empire might make more sense obviously, but specifically in these conditions. And of course there's only one person qualified to run it, Killy notwithstanding.

 

[B'elanna_Torres]

I haven't seen Season 2, but the Empress is one of the reasons that I have (for now) given up on DSC (though I intend to give it another reason soon). All of the characters I love, Georgiou in particular, have been killed off and I do not consider Mirror Universe counterparts as a worthy substitute.

It's essentially the writer's way of going for a shock death and then saying "nah, not really". I hate that. In fact, a part of me still wants Star Trek: Shenzhou more than Strange New Worlds.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

season 2 sort of established her as an ally.

Ally? That's a foreign concept to MU Georgiou. Anyone she might consider an "ally" is for convenience only. She can, and will, discard them at the slightest opportunity.

People like that do not make true friends or allies. It's literally incomprehensible to them. Georgiou, when you get right down to it, is incapable of feeling anything like loyalty, trust, or honor. She cares about absolutely NO ONE but herself.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe the Saru incident was just a matter of misplaced punctuation...
WRONG: "Let's eat Saru."
RIGHT: "Let's eat, Saru."

Remember, children... punctuation saves Kelpians.

 

[Galaxy]

Basically you want her to be one particular way but she actually has shades of gray. As a DS9 fan, you should appreciate that. But at least you see the shades of gray. A lot of people here either can't or don't want to.

She had to be a certain way in the Mirror Universe in order to survive. She's not there now, so she's adapting to a different way of doing things.

But, at the end of the day, she didn't ask to be brought into the Prime Universe. Michael Burnham brought her there. So she should be grateful Georgiou hasn't been a problem because if she had been, it would've been a problem that Burnham brought on herself.

In general I would agree,most situations are not black and white, but shades of grey. The problem is the Empress was essentially shown to be Hitler. Is there any way hat Hitler could have redeemed himself? I would say no. Now, that does not mean one would not use the resourcefulness of Hitler/Empress, in a similar way to how the US employed the service of Werner von Braun, however they were a bit to chummy with the Empress in Season 2 in my view.

 

[Lord Garth]

In general I would agree,most situations are not black and white, but shades of grey. The problem is the Empress was essentially shown to be Hitler. Is there any way hat Hitler could have redeemed himself? I would say no. Now, that does not mean one would not use the resourcefulness of Hitler/Empress, in a similar way to how the US employed the service of Werner von Braun, however they were a bit to chummy with the Empress in Season 2 in my view.

I was wondering how long it would take to get to this. Georgiou, from the looks of it, didn't rise up. She inherited her position. Almost everyone she's been shown to kill has been evil. I'm not going to shed a tear if the bad guys die. I'm just not.

I'm also going to cut and paste something else I posted two months ago in this thread when Cyrus posted a tweet from one of the DSC Writers about Georgiou.

-- Cutting and pasting --

The writer of the episode explains why he put "Iaponius" (which is Latin for Japanese) among Georgiou's titles:
https://twitter.com/jnardino/status/955642131086917632

Nice. Looks like I guessed right.

Cutting and pasting Jordon Nardino's tweets.

"All Hail her most Imperial Majesty, Mother of the Fatherland, Overlord of Vulcan, Dominus of Kronos, Regina Andor, All Hail Philippa Georgiou Augustus Iaponius Centarius." But what's it mean??!?

Let's find out!

Father of the Fatherland is easy, we turned that into Mother of the Fatherland (even tho we de-gendered Emperor, it felt right) - Overlord of Vulcan: an early conquest of the Terrans, they see themselves as their protectors. It's paternalistic / delusional.

Okay. That's all stuff that happened during and after First Contact in 2063.

Dominus of Kronos: Terrans are very proud of conquering Qo'noS. Dominus is a harsher title the Emperor at the time took as a result (and Georgiou kept for herself). "We OWN them." Qo'noS mispronounced out of cultural chauvinism.

So Qo'noS wasn't destroyed on her watch. It was one of her predecessors.

Regina Andor: Andoria is a jewel in the Terran crowd. Subjugated warrior race. Early Terran conquest, pre-Sato. The title was created to celebrate this achievement.

Andoria was conquered in the 22nd Century, it looks like.

Philipa Georgiou: her given name and her family name, just like Prime. Augustus: the Terrans see themselves as inheritors of the Roman Empire so their Emperors take the title of its first Emperor.

Okay, so she had a parent with the last name Georgiou.

Iaponius is Latin for Japanese. This (in my fever dream) is a title Hoshi Sato adopted when she named herself Empress, to honor her homeland. "So is Georgiou descended from Hoshi!?" Well...

So, like I said, Georgiou is descended from Hoshi Sato. Further explanation below.

..whoever inherited Hoshi's throne was someone she adopted as a child & heir, the way most Roman emperors did. And that Emperor adopted his/her heir, and so on, until we get to Georgiou. And she is proud of the connection and flaunts it with the title Iaponius. But... ...it's not canon until it's on screen so that's just one writer's opinion. As for Centaurius, I figured it was the first system colonized by the Terrans since it's closest to Sol so it was a title the Emperor at the time took in tribute. Hope someone found this informative!

So this was something I've always suspected. Georgiou didn't work her way up to Emperor. She inherited the position. That explains why she acts the way she does in DSC and comes off as spoiled sometimes. It also explains why she had an easier time adjusting to the Prime Universe than you'd think.

She was handed her position on a silver platter and always had an army of guards to back her up. Someone who actually fought their way up to the top in the Mirror Universe wouldn't have ever been able to adjust to the Prime Universe.

And the Terrans are based off Romans. I believe this was hinted at in the intro for "Into the Mirror Darkly" (ENT).
.
.
.

I hope Season 3 of DSC and Section 31 actually spell out the Writer's Intent. If they do, it would clear up a lot of things once and for all. I never knew about these tweets from the writer until now.

Thanks @Cyrus.

-- End of cut and paste --

 

[Lord Garth]

Anyway, people have no problem with Spike from Buffy growing or changing. People have no problem with Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z growing or changing. But when it comes to Georgiou, they suddenly have to draw the line? Yeah, no. I'm going to call bullshit.

And, for the record, I happen to like all three of those characters.

Until Georgiou moves against the protagonists in DSC or anyone "good" now that she's in the Prime Universe, I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt. She could've turned on Burnham and taken over the Galaxy any time. She's played by the rules throughout. Sometimes reluctantly. She could've killed pre-Control Leland. She didn't. All she did was try to make him look bad so she could move up Section 31. She could've easily killed him and made it look like an accident. She never did any of that.

The body of evidence in the series shows that she can reform. And that body of evidence will likely grow in Season 3. If that turns out not to be the case, then I'll admit so.

EDIT: People were willing to give mid-DS9 Dukat the benefit of the doubt too. They were warming up to him. I was online back then, so I can say this for a fact. I know what I saw, despite what they might want to say after the fact.

One of the things that prompted Ira Steven Behr to have Dukat have Cardassia join the Dominion was because the audience was growing too cozy with him. Might that happen with Georgiou here? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[BillJ]

One of the things that prompted Ira Steven Behr to have Dukat have Cardassia join the Dominion was because the audience was growing too cozy with him. Might that happen with Georgiou here? Maybe, maybe not.

The audience was getting too cozy, or the writers were?

I was wondering long it would take to get to this. Georgiou, from the looks of it, didn't rise up. She inherited her position. Almost everyone she's been shown to kill has been evil. I'm not going to shed a tear if the bad guys die. I'm just not.

She killed the entirety of her advisors and destroyed the rebel base from orbit, not to mention eating sapient beings. She also helped destroy her universes version of the Talosians. Not sure why people go out of their way to excuse her actions?

 

[Lord Garth]

She killed the entirety of her advisors and destroyed the rebel base from orbit, not to mention eating sapient beings. She also helped destroy her universes version of the Talosians. Not sure why people go out of their way to excuse her actions?

Advisors who are probably the scum of the Earth. Like I said. They were evil. They were "in the game". To use Breaking Bad terms.

and destroyed the rebel base from orbit, not to mention eating sapient beings.

I didn't excuse that. If I did, I wouldn't have said anything about reform.

I made my criteria extremely clear. If she kills anyone "good" in the Prime Universe, I'll say so and I won't defend it. If she doesn't, then I'll say she's continuing to reform.

 

[BillJ]

Advisors who are probably the scum the Earth.

Probably? That is an awfully big hedge you’ve got growing. Killing people is a shitty thing to do. I learned that when I was a wee lad.

I didn't excuse that. If I did, I wouldn't have said anything about reform.

It isn’t “reform” if one is forced to do it. Mirror Georgiou is simply a survivor, like many dictators. I’m also sure her “reform” will be a relief to the millions who likely died on her watch after being terrorized by the Terran Empire.

 

[Lord Garth]

I’m also sure her “reform” will be a relief to the millions who likely died on her watch after being terrorized by the Terran Empire.

I'm also sure that as far as the Mirror Universe is concerned, she's dead. She would've been if Burnham didn't rescue her.

It isn’t “reform” if one is forced to do it.

What makes you think she was forced to do anything? If she played her cards right, she could've done whatever she wanted. She chose to play by Section 31's rules. She chose to go along with everything Discovery's done. She didn't have to. She's crafty enough to get out of there and do things her way if she really wants to.

 

[BillJ]

I'm also sure that as far as the Mirror Universe is concerned, she's dead. She would've been if Burnham didn't rescue her.

That doesn’t change that the audience does know what happened. You should check out Heil Honey, I’m Home. It should give you a gross feeling in the pit of your stomach.

 

[Jadeb]

Has the Empress shown compassion or remorse or empathy since she came back with Burnham? That’s what I’d like to see if they are going for a redemption arc, not just her working alongside the good guys for her own ends.

 

[Lord Garth]

Killing people is a shitty thing to do. I learned that when I was a wee lad.

Just want to clear one thing up, so I wanted save this for a separate post. In real life, I'm against the Death Penalty. I'm for throwing scum in prison for life and throwing away the key.

But when I'm watching TV or a movie? I don't care if bad guys or anti-heroes kill other bad guys or anti-heoroes. Because it's not real. It's fiction. If I'm watching a Western, I don't care if the hero kills the bad guy. These people don't reflect me. And I'm not asking that they do.

In Sudden Impact, I don't care that the female protagonist (I forget her name) killed the pack of guys who raped her.

 

[Jadeb]

Just want to clear one thing up, so I wanted save this for a separate post. In real life, I'm against the Death Penalty. I'm for throwing scum in prison for life and throwing away the key.

But when I'm watching TV or a movie? I don't care if bad guys or anti-heroes kill other bad guys or anti-heoroes. Because it's not real. It's fiction.

I think fiction often informs people’s real-life attitudes, and I’m uncomfortable with Trek encouraging the base impulses it tells us we can overcome.

 

[BillJ]

But when I'm watching TV or a movie? I don't care if bad guys or anti-heroes kill other bad guys or anti-heoroes. Because it's not real. It's fiction.

You don't understand that you can send the wrong type of message with that attitude?