There are four lights revisited and solved very easily

[dave2770]

“How many lights do you see”

Picard: “there are four lights”

Cardassian: “no, there are five lights. How many lights do you see”

Picard: “my mistake. Sorry. Your right I do see five lights now I must have missed it the first time. Thank you for clarifying that for me”

Cardassian: “details on minos korva”

Picard: “the federation has Klingon ships cloaked and covering the entire sector doing surveillance and preparing for hostilities”

Cardassian: thank you. You may go now

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If Picard said it in a tone like he was just manipulating him the torture wouldn't have stopped. He had to have given in his free will.

 

[JesterFace]

Long ago, at first I thought that by the 5th light the interrogator meant himself.

 

[at Quark's]

Or:

Picard: There are no lights at all, there's just the spoon. Don't try to bend it, since it isn't really there either. Then you'll see that it's not the spoon that bends, but only yourself, spoonhead.
Cardie: Erm, what ?

 

[Sareesataka]

Picard: "No, not 5. I see 4 lights. One of the bulbs is burnt out...HahA! Made you look!! Gotcha, Sucker!"

 

[dave2770]

If Picard said it in a tone like he was just manipulating him the torture wouldn't have stopped. He had to have given in his free will.

It's possible.

But the art of using your "third eye" to understand what the Gul's intent is and troll him with answers like "oh yea sorry my mistake I do actually see five lights" while obviously you know you don't believe it and are trolling him (but not lying) I think could work because we don't know how cardassians perceive trolling. They may think picard was speaking the truth

 

[Mojochi]

I've looked at it like that before myself, because my own initial reaction would be the opposite of Picard's, to just relent immediately. "Oh five lights. You're right. I must've been mistaken", but you see that response is just as much a play in the battle of wills as is refusing to say it. Any person trying to establish dominance will ultimately know that you're only saying it to appease them, & the battle of wills goes on into another area, maybe one you AREN'T willing to so easily relent on. That's why it's called "Pushing people's buttons" It implies there's more than one way to achieve the goal

The overall point of this tactic is not for him to say "Five lights" because once that line has been crossed there is another line to be placed. The idea is that torture is the end unto itself. It doesn't truly yield anything you can ultimately place any worth in, because either they are lying out of resistance, or lying out of desperation to make the torture stop. Torturers can never really know if the information they are extracting is 100% valid. It is a no win scenario, & that's the point Picard finally makes. You only torture because you want to, not to obtain any kind of result beyond that. Any reason you have for torturing is just an excuse to validate your desire to torture

 

[Marynator]

If you've ever lived through emotional abuse and manipulation, you might feel differently. When someone's trying to control you, he wants you to agree with things he says, and it doesn't really matter what your reasons are, you're simply taking your first steps to what he wants.

And it's just a first step, he wants to say something and he wants Picard to give him a certain answer. Once you start dong that, he'll move on more and more, and things will get progressively worse for you, until you don't really know what's real any more except for what he puts into your mind. He wants you to accept his version of reality, not what you're really seeing or experiencing.

 

[Sgt_G]

Agreed. I know a couple people who have gone thru that kind of abuse, and the PTSD is actually on-par with what some combat vets deal with. In some ways, it's got to be worse because someone you trusted betrayed you. For anyone who's been on the receiving end, I would implore them to seek professional help to deal with it all. For those on the giving end, may they rot in Hell.

 

[Qonundrum]

“How many lights do you see”

Picard: “there are four lights”

Cardassian: “no, there are five lights. How many lights do you see”

Picard: “my mistake. Sorry. Your right I do see five lights now I must have missed it the first time. Thank you for clarifying that for me”

Cardassian: “details on minos korva”

Picard: “the federation has Klingon ships cloaked and covering the entire sector doing surveillance and preparing for hostilities”

...disclaimer: I edited your last line and am continuing the story... because I just drank too much coffee*...

Cardassian: thank you. (zaps Picard)

Picard: "Ouch! Why?"

Cardassian: "Because I added 'Korva' to deflect, I really meant planet Minos where the arsenal of freedom was. We know you turned it off but didn't self-destruct or nag it to implosion the way Kirk always had. Your Federation will soon be no more, thanks to painted pantyhose dispensers and shampoo bottles glued together, moohahahaha!"

Picard: "Seems I picked the wrong week to quit growing hair."




* one sip

 

[Nakita Akita]

This episode pains me on a lot of levels.
Stewart is such a good actor, it makes it even more difficult to watch. (Closet Land with Alan Rickman painful.

You just know, that no matter what Picard says the Cardassian is just going to find something else to torture him with.

I always thought though that he should have stated a completly wrong number of lights.
Like seven or two. I think I would have done that. But I'm definitely not smart enough to know why I would do it, I belive that I would though.

One other sick aspect for me personally was that I had a sister in law that told me to be sure to watch it because Picard was naked and he was so hot. How can a normal woman think a guy is hot that is being tortured. She was a head case.

 

[at Quark's]

Of course this scene has been copied straight from 1984, where the torturers aren't simply content with making Winston admit there are 5 lights, and not even just to make him believe it in an everyday, ordinary sense, but to make him convinced within his deepest core of being there really are 5 lights and that big brother always knows best no matter how absurd it might seem, and that even the torture was only for his own benefit, mercifully provided by Big Brother to help him see the error of his ways. And only then can he be killed.

It comes very close to the sentiment expressed by Dukat:

WEYOUN: Then our first step is be to eradicate its population. It's the only way.
DUKAT: You can't do that.
WEYOUN: Why not?
DUKAT: Because! A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness.
WEYOUN: Then you kill them?
DUKAT: Only if it's necessary.

Them Cardie military types are a creepy bunch ….

 

[Mojochi]

Of course this scene has been copied straight from 1984, where the torturers aren't simply content with making Winston admit there are 5 lights, and not even just to make him believe it in an everyday, ordinary sense, but to make him convinced within his deepest core of being there really are 5 lights and that big brother always knows best no matter how absurd it might seem, and that even the torture was only for his own benefit, mercifully provided by Big Brother to help him see the error of his ways. And only then can he be killed.

It's a pretty ideal method too. Perception is really malleable, & after someone had been tortured, & deprived, hallucination becomes a real factor, & light is an easy thing to misjudge. It would not be hard for someone to torture someone to a point where they wouldn't even know anymore. It is surely possible, even likely, that eventually he would think he was seeing 5 lights

I think the closest he ever got to toppling Picard is the "You can go" scene. That is just some insane manipulation. You make him choose to stay, & then everything that happens thereafter is his own doing. I never felt so worried for Picard in the entire history of the character more than right then, because he was submitted, & not in any kind of abstract Borg/sci-fi assimilation way. This was a real submission like we see happen to people in real life, & that's the only way you get to the scene where he offers him a life of comforts, where he honestly can't defend himself against it anymore

I always thought though that he should have stated a completly wrong number of lights.
Like seven or two. I think I would have done that. But I'm definitely not smart enough to know why I would do it, I belive that I would though.

At one point he just defiantly says "What lights?" Which is essentially the same thing, refuting the entirety of the exercise

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

.....Cardassian: thank you. You may go now

And then suddenly, this popped into my head.

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[Makarov]

I always thought though that he should have stated a completly wrong number of lights.

MADRED: Shall we begin again? How many lights are there?
PICARD: What lights?

Bad ass line by Picard

 

[Lynx]

I actually watched this episode yesterday and it strikes me how incredible stupid the Federation and Starfleet acted in their dealings with the Cardassians.

First of all, they are sending their best Starfleet Captain, a doctor with no military training whatsoever and Worf, the oly logical choice to investigate a rumor in Cardassian space, a suicide mission to say the least.

It would have been like the US had sent General Patton on a similar suicide mission behind German lines to find Hitler's supposed stash of nuclear weapons instead of letting Patton do what he was best at.

The most logical would have been to send Riker, Data and Worf on this mission. But not hteir best Starfleet Captain.

Then they assign the thick-headed Jellico as Commander of the Enterprise and do it in a way which more reminds me of rigid Stalinist behavior in some East-European country in the Communist days than a future Starfleet in a civilized world. Of course, it ended up in almost failure.

Nechayev acted in the same way when she was trying to force those Native Americans to leave Dorvan V. Another example of thick-headed arrogance.

Which brings me to the treaty the Federation signed with the Cardassians when they gave away several Federation colonies to the Cardassians. That created the tensions in the Dmilitarized Zone and the start of the Maquis. That treaty actually reminded me of when great Britain and France let Germany occupy the border areas of Czechoslovakia in 1938. I actually wish that the Federation had a Churchill who had told the leaders in the Federation that "they had to choose between war and dishonor. They choose dishonor and they will get the war as a consequence of that".

Later on, the Federation leaders side with the Cardassians against their most important allies, the Klingons, almost causing a war between the Federation and the Klingons. On top of that they got the Dominion War and the Cardassians stabbing the Federation in the back as thank you for the help against the Klingons.

I guess that the Federation president who looked like a dog was booted out of office after that.

A wonder that the Federation managed to defeat the Dominion and they should be grateful that the Klingons didn't held a grudge against them.

What they should have done from the start was to put down the foot and never have given the Cardassians those disputed areas. It would have been better to take a conflict with the cardassians there and then isntead of constantly backing down to them.

I really like the Federation buty sometimes their leaders did stupid things and sometimes their military leaders appeared very rigid and narrow-minded.

By the way, Gul Madred reminded me both in looks and manners of a boss I had at a place I worked at around the time when this episode was aired the first time. I had no problems with that grumpy man but I know others who had and were summoned to his office for some bashing. I wonder if he treated them with the "How many lights do you see? Is it four or five?" torture.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Federation has a history of giving too much to prevent war. The whole cloaking device thing.

Before the Dominion came along though, the Cardassians were becoming more peaceful. If the Maquis and Klingons hadn’t cornered them, and if they didn’t have the option, things would have gone way better.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I actually watched this episode yesterday and it strikes me how incredible stupid the Federation and Starfleet acted in their dealings with the Cardassians.

First of all, they are sending their best Starfleet Captain, a doctor with no military training whatsoever and Worf, the oly logical choice to investigate a rumor in Cardassian space, a suicide mission to say the least.

It would have been like the US had sent General Patton on a similar suicide mission behind German lines to find Hitler's supposed stash of nuclear weapons instead of letting Patton do what he was best at.

The most logical would have been to send Riker, Data and Worf on this mission. But not hteir best Starfleet Captain.

Or, I don't know, maybe send Starfleet's equivalent to Special Forces or intelligence operatives. People trained to infiltrate enemy lines and gather intel

Even Worf probably didn't have that type of training, or very little of it. He was a security officer.

 

[at Quark's]

I actually watched this episode yesterday and it strikes me how incredible stupid the Federation and Starfleet acted in their dealings with the Cardassians.

First of all, they are sending their best Starfleet Captain, a doctor with no military training whatsoever and Worf, the oly logical choice to investigate a rumor in Cardassian space, a suicide mission to say the least.

It would have been like the US had sent General Patton on a similar suicide mission behind German lines to find Hitler's supposed stash of nuclear weapons instead of letting Patton do what he was best at.

The most logical would have been to send Riker, Data and Worf on this mission. But not hteir best Starfleet Captain.

Perhaps they should have added a scene, something like this:

Nechayev: Captain, thank you for receiving me on your ship. Computer, turn off all recording and logging of this discussion, authorisation Nechayev Alpha <little pause> Beta Iota Theta CHi.
Computer: Confirmed. All recording and logging in this room suspended.
Nechayev: Captain, we need to show the Cardassians once again that our Federation morals, our philosophical attitudes and our strength of determination are superior to theirs. Our plan is to get you captured by the Cardassians by some half-baked pretense and let them have their way with you for a little while to show them how far above them you are and that your spirit cannot be broken, before we 'discover' you are actually held captive and start demanding your return.
Picard: Why me?
Nechayev: Do you think the Cardassians would be as impressed by Redshirt Nobody of the USS Notworthmentioninghere as much as by the attitude of the captain of our flag ship? Or the viewers to identify with mr Redshirt, for that matter?
Picard: OK, OK …. just what do you expect me to suffer?
Nechayev: Nothing too strenuous, really. I'd imagine they'd apply a little torture to you, like not letting you drink for a few days and some beatings or electronervously induced pain, but they certainly don't want you dead... well at least not until you break, so as long as you can avoid that before we demand you back, you should be fine.
Picard: I'll go to any lengh to show the superiority of the Federation! But how do you expect me to play my role convincingly?
Nechayev: simple. After this meeting I will ask dr. Crusher to first wipe your memory of this meeting and after that, wipe her own memory since she's also about to be part of the "special" team. After that, we will have a recorded meeting in which I will tell you some hogwash about metagenic weaponry that needs investigation...you and Crusher will immediately swallow this arrant nonsense because of some post-hypnotic conditioning.

 

[Lynx]

Perhaps they should have added a scene, something like this:

Nechayev: Captain, thank you for receiving me on your ship. Computer, turn off all recording and logging of this discussion, authorisation Nechayev Alpha <little pause> Beta Iota Theta CHi.
Computer: Confirmed. All recording and logging in this room suspended.
Nechayev: Captain, we need to show the Cardassians once again that our Federation morals, our philosophical attitudes and our strength of determination are superior to theirs. Our plan is to get you captured by the Cardassians by some half-baked pretense and let them have their way with you for a little while to show them how far above them you are and that your spirit cannot be broken, before we 'discover' you are actually held captive and start demanding your return.
Picard: Why me?
Nechayev: Do you think the Cardassians would be as impressed by Redshirt Nobody of the USS Notworthmentioninghere as much as by the attitude of the captain of our flag ship? Or the viewers to identify with mr Redshirt, for that matter?
Picard: OK, OK …. just what do you expect me to suffer?
Nechayev: Nothing too strenuous, really. I'd imagine they'd apply a little torture to you, like not letting you drink for a few days and some beatings or electronervously induced pain, but they certainly don't want you dead... well at least not until you break, so as long as you can avoid that before we demand you back, you should be fine.
Picard: I'll go to any lengh to show the superiority of the Federation! But how do you expect me to play my role convincingly?
Nechayev: simple. After this meeting I will ask dr. Crusher to first wipe your memory of this meeting and after that, wipe her own memory since she's also about to be part of the "special" team. After that, we will have a recorded meeting in which I will tell you some hogwash about metagenic weaponry that needs investigation...you and Crusher will immediately swallow this arrant nonsense because of some post-hypnotic conditioning.

Wonderful comment!

 

[Nakita Akita]

Perhaps they should have added a scene, something like this:

Nechayev: Captain, thank you for receiving me on your ship. Computer, turn off all recording and logging of this discussion, authorisation Nechayev Alpha <little pause> Beta Iota Theta CHi.
Computer: Confirmed. All recording and logging in this room suspended.
Nechayev: Captain, we need to show the Cardassians once again that our Federation morals, our philosophical attitudes and our strength of determination are superior to theirs. Our plan is to get you captured by the Cardassians by some half-baked pretense and let them have their way with you for a little while to show them how far above them you are and that your spirit cannot be broken, before we 'discover' you are actually held captive and start demanding your return.
Picard: Why me?
Nechayev: Do you think the Cardassians would be as impressed by Redshirt Nobody of the USS Notworthmentioninghere as much as by the attitude of the captain of our flag ship? Or the viewers to identify with mr Redshirt, for that matter?
Picard: OK, OK …. just what do you expect me to suffer?
Nechayev: Nothing too strenuous, really. I'd imagine they'd apply a little torture to you, like not letting you drink for a few days and some beatings or electronervously induced pain, but they certainly don't want you dead... well at least not until you break, so as long as you can avoid that before we demand you back, you should be fine.
Picard: I'll go to any lengh to show the superiority of the Federation! But how do you expect me to play my role convincingly?
Nechayev: simple. After this meeting I will ask dr. Crusher to first wipe your memory of this meeting and after that, wipe her own memory since she's also about to be part of the "special" team. After that, we will have a recorded meeting in which I will tell you some hogwash about metagenic weaponry that needs investigation...you and Crusher will immediately swallow this arrant nonsense because of some post-hypnotic conditioning.

My DVD has this scene.