The Xindi and the former Delphic Expanse

[Herbert1]

What are your thoughts about the Xindi and the races inhabiting the former Delphic Expanse. Do you believe that by the 23rd or 24th century, the worlds inhabited by the five species of Xindi in the former Delphic Expanse have become part of the United Federation of Planets? What of the other races inhabiting the former Delphic Expanse?

Some have speculated that the former Delphic Expanse was located between Ferengi and Cardassian space. Could there be a political entity like the Xindi Alliance or Xindi Republic? Does it seem reasonable that Delphic Expanse was located in the Alpha Quadrant? Could the former Delphic Expanse have been carved up by the Breen Confederacy? Tzenkethi Coalition? Cardassian Union?

Thoughts?

 

[ChristopherPike]

The Xindi fractured and the various species became known in connection to their new homeworlds. Which is why you barely hear about them in the future. I'd like to think Reptillians probably became known as Saurians. Although that's somewhat fannish and small universe thinking.

Similarly races like Xyrillian, Suliban and Tandarans, probably the first to fall. Waking up to find themselves inside either the Romulan or Klingon Empires one morning.

 

[ChristopherPike]

Better scrap that Saurian idea. Seems one appeared in The Motion Picture.

 

[Seven of Five]

I like the idea that they fractured, as they certainly weren't in full agreement come the end of the Xindi arc. That way the Aquatics and so on could enter the Federation.

 

[Skywalker]

I prefer the idea that they eventually resolved their differences and joined the Federation as one united people.

 

[Timo]

Does it seem reasonable that Delphic Expanse was located in the Alpha Quadrant?

There are three limiting figures there:

1) It's "a region of space nearly 2,000 ly across"
2) Earth lies "fifty lightyears away" from the Xindi central world
3) The trip from Earth to the Xindi central world (*) is estimated at three warp-months, and our heroes hit the edge of the Expanse after seven weeks

Basically, then, we're looking at something that's only about 30 ly away from Earth but is huge and would encompass all the known/real places Kirk visited in TOS if properly placed. From the imagery in "The Expanse", though, it's not a sphere with a radius of 1,000 ly, but a complex shape that features great curvature in places. For all we know, tentacles from this monster anomaly go between Earth and all its traditional TOS enemies - and these impassable tentacles were what kept Earth from being conquered by Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Tholians, Tzenkethi and what-have-you.

Onscreen, though, we only learn that the Klingons and Vulcans would have had dealings with the Expanse. Which makes me think the best place to put it would be between Earth and the Klingon Empire, so that its dissipation would give Klingons access to Earth and thus launch the centuries of enmity. Although putting it in the spot between Klingon and Romulan realms and the future UFP would a nice way of precipitating the Romulan War, too, again helping explain how an old and well-established warrior culture only suddenly and belatedly decides to move against Earth.

To best serve this role of an iron curtain, the Expanse then could be a vertical pancake shape, perpendicular to the galactic plane and thus a true wall between the "west" of the UFP and the "east" of the two bellicose empires...

This could be taken to describe such a wall:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Delphic_Expanse_sphere_map.jpg

Timo Saloniemi

(*) To be sure, our heroes don't know that their Xindi endpoint would be this central world which the Xindi dialogue establishes as being 50 ly from Earth. Instead, the Future Guy apparently told them that the Earth-killing superweapon was being constructed at the coordinates that lay 3 warp-months away from Earth - perhaps much farther away than 50 ly?

 

[Kotik]

Putting the Expanse as a barrier between Earth and the Klingon Empire doesn't work, because

a) it would have made the events of "Broken Bow" impossible.
b) they allegedly could reach Qo'nos in 4 days as per "Broken Bow", while it took 7 weeks to the Expanse.

The Xindi are the biggest flaw in the whole prequel concept, because, after building them up all through the season long Xindi arc, they just became never-to-be-seen-again aliens like the Tandarans, Xrillians, Akaali, Suliban, etc.

Considering that NX-01's range of movement was much smaller than that of Kirk's Enterprise, it is surprising that most races we see in ENT do not appear later again. It was very sloppy writing.

 

[Timo]

Putting the Expanse as a barrier between Earth and the Klingon Empire doesn't work, because it would have made the events of "Broken Bow" impossible.

No need to have the Expanse completely block access. It would be sufficient to create an obstacle with a narrow "pass", which the Vulcans with their superior technology could then easily guard and the Klingons would never deem worth forcing.

A bigger problem is that the Expanse never gets mentioned before "The Expanse". If it lies mere 30 ly from Earth, all starfaring humans should be well aware of it, and Archer with his long range, high speed ship would be especially well informed. To avoid this, we probably have to dance around the "50 ly from Xindi Capital to Human Capital" reference, once again postulating that the capital worlds are situated particularly close to each other even when the bulk of the respective star empires lies farther away. It's the old "Washington vs. Richmond" trick again.

Although we already have to use it for the Klingon capital world, and the trick can only take so much abuse... But there's nothing conceptually wrong about two empires being proximal yet fighting most of their fights in places distant from their capitals or their closest stretch of border. In the real world, Washington/Richmond was not unique, either; the Berlin/London fight took largely place far out in the Atlantic, say. And the classic naval adventures featured London/Paris and London/Madrid fights literally on the other side of the world!

Considering that NX-01's range of movement was much smaller than that of Kirk's Enterprise, it is surprising that most races we see in ENT do not appear later again.

How so? Kirk by the above token would have sailed farther out, leaving these ENT species to do domestic quarreling. Kirk seldom went anywhere near Earth (and never went to Earth in the TOS era as far as we can tell, and only once diverted to Vulcan), so any species native to that area would be left unvisited in TOS!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herbert1]

Had the Xindi already established a new homeworld by 2153 ( Star Trek: Enterprise Season Three). Or was the Xindi Council still attempting to locate a suitable planet to establish a new homeworld?

Where I am confused is that it seems that the Xindi launch an attack against Earth because the Sphere Builders (Guardians) tell them that their future homeworld will be destroyed by Earth in the 26th century. Is that correct?

The Xindi are the biggest flaw in the whole prequel concept, because, after building them up all through the season long Xindi arc, they just became never-to-be-seen-again aliens like the Tandarans, Xrillians, Akaali, Suliban, etc.

Considering that NX-01's range of movement was much smaller than that of Kirk's Enterprise, it is surprising that most races we see in ENT do not appear later again. It was very sloppy writing.

Or perhaps between Star Trek: Enterprise and Star Trek: The Original Series the Tandarans, Xrillians, Akalli, Suliban, and the five species that constitute the Xindi became friends with the Coalition of Planets/United Federation of Planets and then petitioned for membership. I don't see why former adversaries cannot become friends by the time of James Tiberius Kirk.

Would it have been better if Star Trek: Enterprise had been limited to previously introduced alien species and/or alien makeups and costumes?

 

[Herbert1]

Postscript:

Onscreen, though, we only learn that the Klingons and Vulcans would have had dealings with the Expanse. Which makes me think the best place to put it would be between Earth and the Klingon Empire, so that its dissipation would give Klingons access to Earth and thus launch the centuries of enmity. Although putting it in the spot between Klingon and Romulan realms and the future UFP would a nice way of precipitating the Romulan War, too, again helping explain how an old and well-established warrior culture only suddenly and belatedly decides to move against Earth.

To best serve this role of an iron curtain, the Expanse then could be a vertical pancake shape, perpendicular to the galactic plane and thus a true wall between the "west" of the UFP and the "east" of the two bellicose empires...

Interesting speculation. The worlds settled by the Xindi and/or the other races that populate the Delphic Expanse could have been conquered or absorbed into the United Federation of Planets, Klingon Empire, and/or Romulan Star Empire if we presume that it was previously located in the Beta Quadrant, between the time of Star Trek: Enterprise and Star Trek: The Original Series.

 

[Timo]

Certainly the Delphic Expense helped defend those worlds from outside threats. It's possible that once the anomalies went away, the Xindi worlds would become exceptionally soft and tempting targets...

We could speculate that the Sphere Builders began their work in Xindi space exactly because of its central location: in the 26th century, its symmetric expansion in every direction would result in it encompassing the UFP and the Klingon Empire both - and well before that century, it would already have swallowed the capital worlds of both! (Plus those of the Romulans, if they still remained a culture of significance.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Finn]

^no Hobus nova?

 

[Timo]

We have seen several nova-containing technologies in Trek so far, including trilithium and fancy photon torpedoes, not just red matter. The failure to apply these to the star that consumed Romulus was a political decision rather than a technological fumble, and any single thing going differently might have saved Romulus.

On the other hand, any single thing going differently could also have saved the Romulans even if Romulus were consumed. Evacuation of millions or billions is another thing that the 24th century technology can pull off if necessary.

Without such preparations, though, the Romulan Star Empire might indeed be lost if Romulus herself was.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ethros]

Why are people mentioning the Akaali? Weren't they a a pre-industrial civilization? So even by the Picard/Sisko/Janeway era they still might not have become warp capable

As for the Suliban, well they were kinda nomads, so 200 years later they could have just moved off a long way away by then.


If we take Geoffrey Mandel's Star Charts (yes, not canon, I know) - http://www.startrekgrissom.com/resources/star_trek_universe.jpg
I'd just guess the Expanse was in the top left, somewhere above the Ferengi Alliance (seen as the placings of the First Federation and Patriarchy are entirely made guess work anyway) just so its not too far away, and yet now near familar races like the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc


As for the Xindi, well there was a Xindi crewman serving aboard the Enterprise-J, so I would like to think that like the Denobulans they did join the UFP at some point, we just don't happen to hear of them during TNG-DS9-VOY. There are 150 planets in the Federation, but all 150 aren't metioned during said shows. Just because they aren't mentioned doesn't mean they don't exist.


And finally, yeah I would have prefferred if they'd use more familiar alien species more. I really liked in Season 1 that they used the names of species mentioned in TOS but not seen. eg the Axanar in Fight or Flight, and the Malurians in Civilization. They should have done that more

 

[Agonizer]

The Aquatics could be manning Cetacean Ops in TNG.

 

[The Caprican]

I would like to see the Xindi as a unified people that had obtained Federation membership. Given that we assume Xindus (a Xindi-Arbhorreal refers to this as the homeworld's name, I believe it was in Azati Prime) is a Federation member in the 26th century (since there are Xindi abooard Enterprise J, though Nog and Worf prove that Starfleet enlistment does not equal Federation membership), I think it is a relatively safe assumption that they are an early Federation applicant. They are close to Earth and Vulcan (relatively speaking) and three of the five species would have already been positively disposed towards Earth. To my thinking, the Insectoids would have come around soon after, with the Reptilians being the last hold out to join the unified Xindi.
The one thing I am surprised by is that the Xindi have yet to be featured in any capacity in the relaunch novels of TNG/Titan/DSN/Voyager or New Frontier. From Enterprise E's Dr. Tropp, we know the Denobulans are still around. So I hope that one of the future novels will help answer this question more definitely.

 

[Timo]

They are close to Earth and Vulcan (relatively speaking)

Some figures on that, just for musing.

"The Expanse" would have us believe that Archer was recalled from the farthest point of his travels to Earth at highest possible speed (he at least starts out at warp five), and he arrives a few months after a day of remembrance for the victims has been held. This means that all his previous Klingon and Romulan encounters had been within a couple of warp-five-months of Earth.

In the same episode, an outward journey to the Xindi is indicated to take three warp-five-months.

Basically, then the Xindi are as near or as far as the Klingons, who were intimately involved in the last episode of the preceding season. Also, towards the end of that season, our NX-01 heroes rendezvoused with a Boomer ship, so the Xindi are only a tad farther out than the radius of Boomer adventures.

On the other hand, Klingons are right next door to Earth in those terms - four days at warp four-plus will do it. So it's quite possible that the removal of the Delphic Expanse would allow the Klingons to expand into the space between Earth and the Xindi, cutting them off the Federation for good.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ajac09]

didnt the klingons move the entire empire at one point? I dont remember

 

[Timo]

The sixth movie suggests their homeworld has suffered so much damage that an evacuation might be in order - yet TNG and DS9 both show various great and venerable landmark buildings of Klingon history. If the Klingons did move, did they take their buildings with them? At least the so-called Great Hall rests on homeworld soil, on the planet called Qo'noS both before and after the events of ST6...

Also, both TOS and DS9 feature the Klingons squabbling over Archanis, suggesting this part of their border didn't move anywhere.

Timo Saloniemi