The mystery of the Breen language

[Nerys Ghemor]

I am curious to know your opinions on something. What is the nature of the Breen language and vocal apparatus? If it is indeed the sound we heard in Season 7, what sort of vocal apparatus or other organ could produce sounds like that? If that's not, then what was really going on there?

Along those lines--did we ever hear such noises issuing from the helmets of our heroes when they disguised themselves as Breen?

Another question: why would the Cardassians have to manually recalibrate their translators to make sense of the Breen? Is this a clue as to what's really going on, or is this just an indicator of a weakness in Cardassian technology?

And was the first time we ever heard any sort of purported Breen language in Season 7, or was there anything in "Indiscretion"?

 

[Iasius]

Along those lines--did we ever hear such noises issuing from the helmets of our heroes when they disguised themselves as Breen?

I seem to remember Kira donning such a suit and when "speaking" to a Jem'Hadar such noises came out in WYLB. However the Jem'Hadar said he didn't understand her.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Do the Jem'Hadar normally seem to understand the Breen? In other words, was this an anomaly when Kira tried it?

 

[Thor Damar]

I simply assumed that the CU had not had any real dealings with the BC so high ranking Cardassians like Damar had not adjusted their personal translators accordingly.

I think that due to the military nature of standard Cardassian technology, the UT is preset to a select number of languages in order to effectively understand and deal with threats.

Colonel/Captain Kira Nerys most assuredly did not know any Breen so her nonsensical rantings confused the Jem'Hadar.

 

[Jono]

I simply assumed that the CU had not had any real dealings with the BC so high ranking Cardassians like Damar had not adjusted their personal translators accordingly.

The Cardassians had an embassy on Breen. Dukat wanted to send one of his enemies there when he took he would return to a high status during "Return to Grace".

My take it was just Damar's lack of interaction with the Breen. Nice sign of his lack of status that he didn't get the forewarning so that he would appear competent in front of his new partners in war.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hmm...you make an interesting argument about translation presets--on the other hand, from a military preparedness standpoint, if you have a realtime translation algorithm with the kind of effectiveness we've seen from the 24th century Federation, wouldn't you want to use that instead? Have some preloaded stuff AND a realtime algorithm. But if that realtime algorithm couldn't handle it, does this mean that the Breen language is so unusual that it goes beyond the standard program?

 

[apenpaap]

Maybe the Breen purposefully make suits make almost incomprehensible sounds to avoid eavesdropping. It certainly fits their paranoid nature.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hm...yet people with the right sort of translators do seem to be able to understand it. Not that secret...

 

[Jono]

Maybe the Breen purposefully make suits make almost incomprehensible sounds to avoid eavesdropping. It certainly fits their paranoid nature.

Breen 1: atreafgaihfacewif
Breen 2: What?
Breen 1: atreafgaihfacewif!
Breen 2: Still not getting it.
Breen 1: atreafgaih...oh, fine. I was trying to make it impossible for others to eavesdrop on our conversation by making incomprehensible sounds.
Breen 2: If they are incomprehensible sounds how am I meant to understand you?
Breen 1: Well you see...You just have to...What I was trying to do was...oh, shut up.

On Federation UTs did Worf and Ezri understand the Breen immediately after they were captured? They only thing I can remember is Erzi yelling at the Breen when they stunned Worf, which is hardly conversing with her captors.

 

[apenpaap]

It is rather strange, but then so is keeping their ship 60 degrees above their comfortable zone and wearing refridgeration suits.

 

[SilentP]

Maybe the Breen purposefully make suits make almost incomprehensible sounds to avoid eavesdropping. It certainly fits their paranoid nature.

Hm...yet people with the right sort of translators do seem to be able to understand it. Not that secret...

Maybe there's a specific scrambling protocol built within the suits to make them incomprehensible, and only translators with the same protocol stored can actually translate it, regardless of UT programming?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

HERE'S WHAT I THINK:

The Breen speak at a frequency that most Humanoid ears cannot hear and which universal translators have trouble understanding. The Breen therefore have a device that translates their language into a more manageable frequency which causes the language to be spoken in a deeper sound so it can be more audible. Even though it is made much deeper and more audible the language is still very strange and complex and requires fine tuning of the universal translator and it's possible the Breen have different dialects which confuses translators even more.

I believe outside of their suits they are weak and frail and susceptible to disease and infection due to a weak or none existent immune system and therefore elect to remain in their suits indefinitely allowing them to be stronger and protected.
It also masks their weakness and frailty from the rest of the Galaxy and from those who visit the Breen homeworld.

 

[Timo]

We don't really have examples of non-Breen understanding Breen talk, save for a few cases where Weyoun might be pretending to understand (the way you know what a foreigner is saying even if you don't speak his lingo), and where the Female Founder clearly comprehends.

It would make perfect sense for the Breen to use "Universal Translator scramblers" for which a counter-scrambler is provided for close allies. The Female Founder could convert part of her body into said counter-scrambler, or simply carry one inside her. And the Vorta probably carry various implants as a matter of course anyway.

The suits in general could be an extension of this: camouflage, not refigeration.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It is rather strange, but then so is keeping their ship 60 degrees above their comfortable zone and wearing refridgeration suits.

Was that just the brig that was kept like that, so as not to kill their prisoners before they'd interrogated them? Or was that indeed the entire ship?

 

[Timo]

Since we never saw other parts of the ship, probably just the brig.

Then again, the idea of the suits being for refrigeration has been challenged. Weyoun once claimed the climate on Breen wasn't that cold at all; perhaps the Cardassian Embassy was deliberately placed in the local arctic or antarctic wastelands to keep up the pretense that the suits refrigerate the Breen? (Of course, we could simply assume that Weyoun was lying, for one of his nebulous purposes.)

At least two people have seen the inside of a Breen suit. Kira donned it twice for camouflage, Dukat once. But we have never seen a Breen, and probably Kira and Dukat didn't, either. They could simply have stolen unoccupied suits - a much easier feat than first incapacitating the occupant without harming the suit, then pulling out said occupant! This might have meant that they would not have learned the truth about the possible refrigeration function, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

I dunno about scramblers, but I like the idea about Breen changing their protocols and being circumspect about giving it to outsiders.

The Breen are portrayed as pretty secretive and xenophobic. What could be more secretive and xenophobic than actively changing their language(s) to prevent aliens' universal translator programs from interpreting anything they say?

Then again, the idea of the suits being for refrigeration has been challenged. Weyoun once claimed the climate on Breen wasn't that cold at all; perhaps the Cardassian Embassy was deliberately placed in the local arctic or antarctic wastelands to keep up the pretense that the suits refrigerate the Breen? (Of course, we could simply assume that Weyoun was lying, for one of his nebulous purposes.)

We could, and in the absence of other explanations would have to, to make the Breen's insistence on refrigeration suits at all reasonable. It's also possible to assume that Vorta aren't much more bothered by cold than the Breen. They could have antifreeze in their plasma, for all we know. To the best of my knowledge, one can say at all what kind of biochemistry a Vorta has. All we do know suggests that it's rather distinct from the mainline humanoid, given its resistance to a wide array of poisons. Now, this would still require Weyoun's line to be rather mocking--"Lol, I find the temperature quite comfortable, you silly, possibly exothermic Cardassian lackey"--but he was talking to Damar, so that's almost a given.

Also, I still say the Breen suits in "Indiscretion" were replicas, not stolen from dead Breen.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Then again, the idea of the suits being for refrigeration has been challenged. Weyoun once claimed the climate on Breen wasn't that cold at all; perhaps the Cardassian Embassy was deliberately placed in the local arctic or antarctic wastelands to keep up the pretense that the suits refrigerate the Breen? (Of course, we could simply assume that Weyoun was lying, for one of his nebulous purposes.)

We could, and in the absence of other explanations would have to, to make the Breen's insistence on refrigeration suits at all reasonable. It's also possible to assume that Vorta aren't much more bothered by cold than the Breen. They could have antifreeze in their plasma, for all we know. To the best of my knowledge, one can say at all what kind of biochemistry a Vorta has. All we do know suggests that it's rather distinct from the mainline humanoid, given its resistance to a wide array of poisons. Now, this would still require Weyoun's line to be rather mocking--"Lol, I find the temperature quite comfortable, you silly, possibly exothermic Cardassian lackey"--but he was talking to Damar, so that's almost a given.

Also, I still say the Breen suits in "Indiscretion" were replicas, not stolen from dead Breen.

I initially always assumed they simply found a storage room and donned empty suits; I never believed they actually got to see a Breen, dead or alive. Of course, I soon realized a flaw in my theory- how could the Breen could get in and out of their suits if they were left in storage rooms where the climate was suitable for Bajorans and Cardassians? Kira and Dukat had to have replicated them somehow- could the runabout do that?-, or stolen them from Breen guards.

If they aren't replicas, and Kira, in "What You Leave Behind", could make Breen noises with her suit- albiet nonsensical as she didn't know the language- as well as have the light-band flashing- it suggests that the Breen suits can be utilized- and powered up- without the refridgeration active, which is interesting. Kira and Dukat, if they stole those suits in "Indiscretion", would have had to have turned it off... Maybe the Breen can handle the freezing cold just fine, but don't actually need it, and can actually also handle other temperatures. Maybe they aren't carbon based at all. Perhaps the "we need cold" concept is all a big lie, though I can't immediately think of a motivation beyond keeping their apperance secret...

As for Breen homeworld, I assumed that the planet the Breen say is their world of origin- and where the Cardassian embassy is situated- is not in fact their ancestral home. It's a front, and Weyoun knew it, either because Thot Gor and the Breen government allowed him to know, or because Dominion Intelligence is very effective...

I suppose when "Zero Sum Game" comes out next winter (appropriate!), we'll have answers...

 

[apenpaap]

Perhaps the "we need cold" concept is all a big lie, though I can't immediately think of a motivation beyond keeping their apperance secret...

You know, that really makes me wonder whether a "Breen" even exists, or if it's an elaborate conspiracy by some other species. For all we know, There could be humans in those suits.

 

[Timo]

Yup. A variant of that plot was used in Ann Crispin's novel Sarek...

Or then the suits could be empty, and the real Breen (or the party maintaining the illusion of a Breen species) could be aphysical or otherwise elsewhere. Now that would be interesting: Kira things she steals a suit, but in fact she's sitting in the belly of a lifeform, one that either agrees to cooperate, or then futilely fights Kira's muscles with unfortunately undersized servos...

Also, I still say the Breen suits in "Indiscretion" were replicas, not stolen from dead Breen.

Building a replica should have been beyond the means of our unlikely heroes. Would they really go all the way back to their runabout (it was a long way)? Would the runabout be capable of creating the replicas in the first place? Would the replicas be accurate enough to fool anybody?

OTOH, stealing empty suits shouldn't have been all that difficult. I mean, the likeliest place for storing them would be near the entrance to those facilities the Breen find comfortable (supposedly, their ship or then some barracks within the mine). If we believe in the refrigeration function, then the suits would be in some sort of a "heatlock" or antechamber that would alternately be outdoors hot or indoors cold; our heroes could have found it in the former state, and would certainly have avoided venturing deeper into the Breen ship or habitat at that time. Indeed, if all the Breen weren't outside working (and thus gunned down by Kira and Dukat there), then either our heroes or the remaining Breen themselves would have locked the habitat until authorities arrived or the heroes departed. In either case, the Breen locked inside would have performed some sort of a disappearing trick before getting caught...

As for Breen homeworld, I assumed that the planet the Breen say is their world of origin- and where the Cardassian embassy is situated- is not in fact their ancestral home. It's a front, and Weyoun knew it, either because Thot Gor and the Breen government allowed him to know, or because Dominion Intelligence is very effective...

That'd be easier than allowing Cardassians access to the true homeworld but still making them confused about the characteristics of that world. That latter trick would require keeping Cardassian ships from approaching the system; providing Breen-only shuttle services to and from the Embassy; and somehow fooling long range sensors, including basic passive ones that no doubt could easily tell the planet's climate from twenty lightyears away (we could probably do that, if not today, then twenty years from now).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[apenpaap]

As for Breen homeworld, I assumed that the planet the Breen say is their world of origin- and where the Cardassian embassy is situated- is not in fact their ancestral home. It's a front, and Weyoun knew it, either because Thot Gor and the Breen government allowed him to know, or because Dominion Intelligence is very effective...

That'd be easier than allowing Cardassians access to the true homeworld but still making them confused about the characteristics of that world. That latter trick would require keeping Cardassian ships from approaching the system; providing Breen-only shuttle services to and from the Embassy; and somehow fooling long range sensors, including basic passive ones that no doubt could easily tell the planet's climate from twenty lightyears away (we could probably do that, if not today, then twenty years from now).

It sounds like a very Breenish thing to do. Also, we can't detect the climate of a planet from 20 lightyears. We can't detect anything other then a planet's mass and orbit from that distance. And even for that, it has to be at least as heavy as Neptune.