The Maquis were never plausible or likeable

[Xerxes1979]

I just don't get it. The Federation has massive abundance of type M worlds where these dirt farmers could be happy. The Federation in addition posesses very advanced terraforming and weather control technology.

Were these Federation colonies (and lets not mince words here they were referred to as colonies not worlds) so special that relocation efforts would not have been satisfactory? I figure only the Native Americans of Dorvan V had any real connection with the land and they were apparently happy with their treaty with the Cardassians as they are never again mentioned.

Comprenshensive primary and secondary education is not just for Starfleet personel but is Federation wide. Given perfect nutrition, medical care and freedom from want why would most citizens not obtain the highest degree of moral development possible? It was not hard to argue that their individual desires endanger the welfare of a much larger group.

I also don't buy that Starfleet personel would have resigned enmasse for this dubious cause. We know that Starfleet kept pysch profiles on file going back to at least Kirk. Wesley's mental fears were comprehensive enough to be used in his Academy testing. Why was Eddington not flagged as a unreliable romantic and idealist? We didn't know enough about his views? Unlikely.

What was the motivation for the average Cardassian settler to attack his Federation neighbor? Did he think he was going to take pocession of the land? The Federation still holds the deed. Starfleet is not going to hessitate to use force to defend a world after the possibility of civilian casualites has been elminated. The Cardassians have no reason to engage in unending naval battle with Starfleet. They would be the losers in both the tactical and attrition sense.

The Maquis on Voyager were pointless and depiction of armed rebels in DS9 could always have been rewritten to be Bajoran in nature. Who created the idea of the Maquis?

 

[JoeZhang]

I just don't get it. The Federation has massive abundance of type M worlds where these dirt farmers could be happy. The Federation in addition posesses very advanced terraforming and weather control technology.

Then you just don't get it. It was an argument about self-determination. What the federation can provide in other places is neither here or there.

Given perfect nutrition, medical care and freedom from want why would most citizens not obtain the highest degree of moral development possible? It was not hard to argue that their individual desires endanger the welfare of a much larger group.

Disabled people use resources that could be better used by able bodies people and there is only such much to go around - best to kill them at birth.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

If someone walked into your house and said "We're sorry, but the land your house is on now belongs to Canada, and they don't want you living on it," would you just pack up and leave?

We're talking about forcing people to leave their homes over a political dispute.

It may not be rational or smart to stay, but I think people would have a genuine bone to pick with their government over an issue like that. Not to mention, Starfleet officers are sworn to protect the values and citizens of the Federation. Simply abandoning Federation citizens to Cardassian authority could easily be seen as a betrayal of that responsibility.

I'm not saying the Maquis had a chance in hell or what they did was a good idea, but they had something of a legitimate beef with their (former) government.

The Cardassians apparently fought their neighbors because their own world was resource-poor and they were very concerned about having enough mineral-rich planets to maintain their large war machine... which was used to acquire more mineral-rich planets. Sort of a reinforcing feedback loop, I suppose.

 

[Xerxes1979]

IThen you just don't get it. It was an argument about self-determination. What the federation can provide in other places is neither here or there.

Well then I wish the Ayn Rand army well against Cardassia, I suspect they will be dead soon.

Disabled people use resources that could be better used by able bodies people and there is only such much to go around - best to kill them at birth.

I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying Federation practices eugenics?

 

[JustKate]

I agree with Robert Maxwell and JoeZhang - it may not be entirely rational, but it is oh, so human to identify with your home and want to keep it, to resent the government who won't help you, and to fight against those who try to take it from you, even if they have a "legal" right to it. Heck, this is happening on the West Bank right now, this very second, and it happens every time someone wants to build a new highway through a populated area or dam up a river and put some river valley under water.

I don't understand why you don't understand, Xerxes. You don't have to agree to understand.

Anyway, I thought it was a tremendously realistic scenario. You could - at least I could - understand why the Federation had done what it had done, but also why the Maquis resented it so bitterly. Brilliant, IMO.

 

[RyuRoots]

Well-said, JustKate.

Of course it's not logical. But they're not Vulcans. These were their homes that were stolen from them by a treaty as a matter of convenience. I don't think it's all that hard to understand how the Maquis was formed from that.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Fondness of land has been the souce of many wars. Ever wonder how the United States got dragged into the Mexican American War or how 54' 40" fight became a jingonistic phrase in a near war with Canada?

Its the fucking 24th century, humanism should reign supreme! We all have the ability to become Ghandis or MLKs. Roddenberry is spinning in his grave.

DS9 could still have plenty of conflict via the other races in that show.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

If someone walked into your house and said "We're sorry, but the land your house is on now belongs to Canada, and they don't want you living on it," would you just pack up and leave?

We're talking about forcing people to leave their homes over a political dispute.

You're right in principle, but in reality (well, within the fictional universe, of course), it's more complicated than that. The Union and the Federation had to settle this dispute once and for all. So they had to reach an agreement and therefore pick the lesser evil. Sure it wasn't the ideal solution, but it was the best they could do. The Feds didn't hand those colonies to the Cardassians because they thought it would be fun, or because they didn't try hard enough.

It wasn't as if someone had walked up to the colonist and told them to fuck off for no good reason. That's not what happened. We can't compare this to any type of exodus we have experienced in our history on Earth.

As for the colonists...sure they had a right to be angry, but they should have understood why this was necessary. They didn't even try.Those people were all about their rights, not their obligations. Bite the bullet once, and make a living on another planet. It sucks, but there was no better option. At least I don't think so.

That's all there is to it. I'm with Sisko on that one: the Maquis were terrorists. But that's just my opinion, and I agree that the scenario was very realistic. It's what people would do.

 

[Xerxes1979]

If I agree that the scenario was very realistic. It's what people would do.

But why Thomas Riker? Absolutely no connection what so ever to the DMZ.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Mate, I think you missed my point. I am in no way whatsoever defending those people. I think they are terrorists. I don't approve, I really don't. All I said was that people will be people, and they are often eager to pick up a gun and start rioting just because they can. Riker just started waving the flag because he wanted to be a hero, and not William T.'s transporter-accident-clone.

 

[JustKate]

That's all there is to it. I'm with Sisko on that one: the Maquis were terrorists. But that's just my opinion, and I agree that the scenario was very realistic. It's what people would do.

Exactly. It doesn't have to be just. It doesn't have to be fair. It doesn't mean the Maquis were the guys in the white hats while the Feds wore black. (I'd say there were several gray hats in there, too.) It's just...very realistic. And it's exactly what a lot of people would do. Not everybody, but enough to cause real trouble. And it was an entirely new kind of trouble for Trekdom, which I suspect was important as well.

Which leads me to:

DS9 could still have plenty of conflict via the other races in that show.

Sure. But why not show this kind of conflict too? Everybody - DS9ers in particular, if I may say so - is always talking about how sanitized the Federation has become by the time of TNG. And it kind of was - I love TNG, but let's face it, just about everything is so clean and tidy and well ordered. There are shortages of nothing.

And then there are the Maquis.

We here in the 20th and now 21st centuries don't live in a TNG kind of world, do we? So why not use a show set in the future to talk about something we do recognize?

I am not a major fan of dark plots just for the sake of darkness - I want happy endings, and I want the good guys to win. But I also want drama that I can identify with. I can certainly identify with various alien conflicts, too. But I really do think the Maquis angle was a brilliant touch. That it first appeared in the formerly neat-and-tidy TNG made it even more poignant.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

What you said, Kate. Spot on.

 

[TheGodBen]

And you have to remember that the Maquis weren't Roddenberry's "perfect" Starfleet officers we had been watching for seven years, the Maquis were not the best and brightest humanity had to offer. They were just people like you and me and normal people aren't well known for making rational judgements, we tend to make choices based upon emotion.

I agree with most of what was stated above, I may not agree with what the Maquis did but I can understand why they did it and I find the whole situation very believable.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Plausible, yes.

Likeable, no.

The problem was their hypocrisy. The Federation's deal is that their citizens have to toe the line and not act up. In return, they get Starfleet protection. If the Maquis want to be outside the big warm fuzzy Federation, then they can't expect Starfleet to lift a pinky in their defense.

The Federation giveth and the Federation taketh away. The only reason those colonists had colonies to begin with is because of Starfleet protection from the local aliens who of course are going to object to interlopers in their territory or even close (the Federation does tend to spread like some vast space ameoba - you think that isn't going to be threatening?), so they have no right to complain when the Federation changes priorities.

I do like the notion of humans who are outside the Federation. Surely there must be some - like ENT's Boomers (tho that was pre-Federation) who would rather have more freedom and less security. Just as long as they aren't crybabies about it.

I also don't buy that Starfleet personel would have resigned enmasse for this dubious cause.

Starfleeters would have been the last people to become Maquis. I can see them being civilians who never thought much of the whole Starfleet Big Brother routine, but why join Big Brother and then change your mind? That just makes them silly. Did they not understand the entire rationale behind the Federation and Starfleet?

Well then I wish the Ayn Rand army well against Cardassia, I suspect they will be dead soon.

Great idea for an episode!

But the Ayn Rand army would never have accepted Big Brothers' help to begin with. That they did means Big Brother has every right to kick them around. You get security or you get freedom, or you get some proportion of each. It's a trade off. But you don't get 100% of both.

 

[JustKate]

Well, Temis, couldn't it be in some cases kind of like when the Confederacy formed in the U.S.? Loyal U.S. soldiers resigned their commissions to go and fight for the Confederacy, not necessarily because they adored slavery and almost in no case because they were eager to fight against their former comrades, but because the folks back home wanted them and needed them, and if there was going to be a fight, they couldn't bear to fight against their own people.

They weren't really fighting "for the Confederacy," although that's how people think of it now. They were fighting for Virginia or Alabama or wherever it was that they thought of when they thought of home.

So some of those former Starfleet officers (those who had roots in the territories ceded to Cardassia) might have felt the same way. That they couldn't bear to fight against Virginia, or the Maquis equivalent thereof.

Anyway, I can think of plausible reasons why a Starfleet officer might find that he couldn't fight against Federation citizens, if he saw them as displaced people, particularly if they were his own people.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Plausible, yes.

Likeable, no.

The problem was their hypocrisy. The Federation's deal is that their citizens have to toe the line and not act up. In return, they get Starfleet protection. If the Maquis want to be outside the big warm fuzzy Federation, then they can't expect Starfleet to lift a pinky in their defense.

The Federation giveth and the Federation taketh away. The only reason those colonists had colonies to begin with is because of Starfleet protection from the local aliens who of course are going to object to interlopers in their territory or even close (the Federation does tend to spread like some vast space ameoba - you think that isn't going to be threatening?), so they have no right to complain when the Federation changes priorities.

I do like the notion of humans who are outside the Federation. Surely there must be some - like ENT's Boomers (tho that was pre-Federation) who would rather have more freedom and less security. Just as long as they aren't crybabies about it.

I also don't buy that Starfleet personel would have resigned enmasse for this dubious cause.

Starfleeters would have been the last people to become Maquis. I can see them being civilians who never thought much of the whole Starfleet Big Brother routine, but why join Big Brother and then change your mind? That just makes them silly. Did they not understand the entire rationale behind the Federation and Starfleet?

Well then I wish the Ayn Rand army well against Cardassia, I suspect they will be dead soon.

Great idea for an episode!

But the Ayn Rand army would never have accepted Big Brothers' help to begin with. That they did means Big Brother has every right to kick them around. You get security or you get freedom, or you get some proportion of each. It's a trade off. But you don't get 100% of both.

Yes becuase its not like the Federation didn't consult these colonists before crapping on their lives and then sent Starfleet in to essentually point a gun to their heads if they didn't pack up and leave, only for the colonists to work out their own deal with the Cardies and then for Starfleet not to seem to care that the Cardassian were going against said agreement AND the treaty they signed with the Feds. OH WAIT THEY DID!!!

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I think they are perfectly plausible. But likable? I'm not so sure. Maybe 'interesting' would be a better word. Would be liking them better, quite frankly, if VOY hadn't housebroken them so easily. Sort of took away the rebellious aspect of them, and that was the most interesting part.

 

[Thor Damar]

Mate, I think you missed my point. I am in no way whatsoever defending those people. I think they are terrorists. I don't approve, I really don't. All I said was that people will be people, and they are often eager to pick up a gun and start rioting just because they can. Riker just started waving the flag because he wanted to be a hero, and not William T.'s transporter-accident-clone.

Nail.On.The.Head.

You just hit it my friend

 

[JustKate]

^ You don't have to like them to understand their motivation, surely? I don't anyway.

And it's definitely plausible - "inevitable" would be a better word, if you ask me.

 

[Xerxes1979]

^ You don't have to like them to understand their motivation, surely? I don't anyway.

And it's definitely plausible - "inevitable" would be a better word, if you ask me.

I almost have 24th century mentality right now. I look at my car as a simple tool, and am less and less materialistic every day. My biggest joys are using the public commons

I don't value my computer as an object but rather as a means to knowledge. I just can't believe that people would love land so much as to resort to terrorism.