The Emissary, The Prophets, and the Pah-wraiths

[presence]

Ok, here's your chance to weigh-in on how you feel about the Emissary, the Prophets and the Pah-wraiths.

Making Sisko the Emissary was a fascinating and risky idea, which was generally handled quite well. Where the writers went off track was when they started taking some of the mystery out of the Emissary and the Prophets -- particularly the plot line that Sisko is the child of his mother and a non-corporeal being. As soon as the writers began to explain the mystery of the Emissary, this plot theme began to lose some of its magic. As for the Pah-wraiths -- (insert raspberry sounds here), come on now, this was Star Trek, not DARK SHADOWS. The Pah-wraiths were a lame idea that got even lamer. The last scene in the Fire Caves where Dukat got the ring of power-- oops, sorry, I meant book -- was copied right out of Tolkein's THE RETURN OF THE KING. It was a sorry supernatural plot that didn't work well. But I loved the mystery of Sisko being chosen to be the Emissary and the slow unfolding hints of what that might mean.

 

[HRHTheKING]

It was all perfectly done.

 

[Zeppster]

It was all perfectly done.

No it wasn't. Sisco basically left his son and unborn child without a parent. Jake was now old enough to take care of himself. He also leaves his wife without a husband.

Making Dukat the devil is stupid also. He was such an interesting character till they basically made him completely evil near the end. There were redeeming qualities about him throughout the show.

 

[Michael]

It was all perfectly done.

No it wasn't. Sisco basically left his son and unborn child without a parent. Jake was now old enough to take care of himself. He also leaves his wife without a husband.

Making Dukat the devil is stupid also. He was such an interesting character till they basically made him completely evil near the end. There were redeeming qualities about him throughout the show.

So I take it you didn't like "What You Leave Behind"?

 

[HRHTheKING]

No it wasn't.

Yes it was.

Sisco basically left his son and unborn child without a parent.

It was the will of the Prophets. Sometimes the road to enlightenment is hard and sacrifices must be made.

Jake was now old enough to take care of himself. He also leaves his wife without a husband.

She'll be fine. Besides, she knew he was the Emissary when they met and married.

Making Dukat the devil is stupid also. He was such an interesting character till they basically made him completely evil near the end. There were redeeming qualities about him throughout the show.

He had no redeeming qualities. He was charming no doubt, but he was WAY beyond redemption. He was slowly sliding towards total corruption all the way through the series. He was ALWAYS evil, he just had a way of convincing himself and almost convincing others that he wasn't. His true nature eventually was revealed.

 

[Zeppster]

There was a lot of dimensions to Dukat's character. He had his daughter which drove him crazy when he killed her. He also wasn't just completely crazy till the end. There was always much more to Dukat. The reason he was evil is because of what he did throughout the series becoming the main foe. Even though he was more like Q was for TNG to me. Now what's her name was Satan if there ever was one.

Also the entire Bashir storyline got fucked up when we find out he was a changling for about half a season. The next episode we find out he's genetically enhanced. The writing in DS9 the last few seasons got very lazy at best.

 

[HRHTheKING]

There was a lot of dimensions to Dukat's character. He had his daughter which drove him crazy when he killed her. He also wasn't just completely crazy till the end.

He wasn't completely "crazy" until the end, but he was always evil. He just tried to cover it with a charming smile, but it didn't convince people like Kira who always knew he was evil.

There was always much more to Dukat. The reason he was evil is because of what he did throughout the series becoming the main foe. Even though he was more like Q was for TNG to me. Now what's her name was Satan if there ever was one.

Q wasn't really a foe but more like a teacher.

Also the entire Bashir storyline got fucked up when we find out he was a changling for about half a season. The next episode we find out he's genetically enhanced. The writing in DS9 the last few seasons got very lazy at best.

The Changling storyline was good because it showed that the could infiltrate the Federation and we had no clue whatsoever that anything was wrong or different. I thought the genetically enhanced element was pretty good. It was a good follow-on from the "Khan" storyline of Trek past.

 

[Zeppster]

There was a lot of dimensions to Dukat's character. He had his daughter which drove him crazy when he killed her. He also wasn't just completely crazy till the end.

He wasn't completely "crazy" until the end, but he was always evil. He just tried to cover it with a charming smile, but it didn't convince people like Kira who always knew he was evil.

There was always much more to Dukat. The reason he was evil is because of what he did throughout the series becoming the main foe. Even though he was more like Q was for TNG to me. Now what's her name was Satan if there ever was one.

Q wasn't really a foe but more like a teacher.

Also the entire Bashir storyline got fucked up when we find out he was a changling for about half a season. The next episode we find out he's genetically enhanced. The writing in DS9 the last few seasons got very lazy at best.

The Changling storyline was good because it showed that the could infiltrate the Federation and we had no clue whatsoever that anything was wrong or different. I thought the genetically enhanced element was pretty good. It was a good follow-on from the "Khan" storyline of Trek past.

Except for the little part where Changling Bashir performed surgery that could have easily killed Sisco. And in interviews after the show the writers(maybe it was Moore) pretty much said that it was a mistake, that they didn't think about Bashir being a changling till the episode was written.

 

[HRHTheKING]

There was a lot of dimensions to Dukat's character. He had his daughter which drove him crazy when he killed her. He also wasn't just completely crazy till the end.

He wasn't completely "crazy" until the end, but he was always evil. He just tried to cover it with a charming smile, but it didn't convince people like Kira who always knew he was evil.

Q wasn't really a foe but more like a teacher.

Also the entire Bashir storyline got fucked up when we find out he was a changling for about half a season. The next episode we find out he's genetically enhanced. The writing in DS9 the last few seasons got very lazy at best.

The Changling storyline was good because it showed that the could infiltrate the Federation and we had no clue whatsoever that anything was wrong or different. I thought the genetically enhanced element was pretty good. It was a good follow-on from the "Khan" storyline of Trek past.

Except for the little part where Changling Bashir performed surgery that could have easily killed Sisco. And in interviews after the show the writers(maybe it was Moore) pretty much said that it was a mistake, that they didn't think about Bashir being a changling till the episode was written.

It's "Sisko" actually.

And the fact he didn't kill Sisko doesn't necessarily have to be a mistake.

Jack mentioned that Dominion strategy is often to make concessions in the short term (giving up a chance to kill Sisko) in order to score a greater victory in the long term (attacking Bajor's sun).

 

[Navaros]

Dukat wasn't evil until they made the conscious decision to fubar his character and make him evil by going with the "evil" ending of Waltz. They then proceeded to fubar his character even more along that path for the rest of the series.

I agree with OP. Clearly the writers of DS9 didn't know what to do with the Prophets/Pah-Wraiths/Emissary in the long-term (or maybe not even past the first episode ), and what they ended up doing was not very good. Definitely one of the series' weakest points.

 

[scorpius1701]

I always thought that it was more interesting when characters had shades of grey. DS9 had a bad habit of making everything black and white by the end. Wasnt it more interesting when we werent really sure whose side Dukat was on? But then we just knew whatever happened he was going to be evil. Oh and i thought that the PahWraiths were seriosuly dumb, as if we werent able to figure out that Good and Evil are opposing forces. As to FakeBashir not killing Sisko when he had the chance, thats not making a concession. They had nothing to gain by not killing him until later. If the writers had planned this out, Fake Bashir would have killed Sisko on the table and blamed it ont he surgery. They have nothing to gain by not doing that and it was a perfect opportunity. The writers messed up there.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Ok, here's your chance to weigh-in on how you feel about the Emissary, the Prophets and the Pah-wraiths.

Making Sisko the Emissary was a fascinating and risky idea, which was generally handled quite well. Where the writers went off track was when they started taking some of the mystery out of the Emissary and the Prophets -- particularly the plot line that Sisko is the child of his mother and a non-corporeal being. As soon as the writers began to explain the mystery of the Emissary, this plot theme began to lose some of its magic. As for the Pah-wraiths -- (insert raspberry sounds here), come on now, this was Star Trek, not DARK SHADOWS. The Pah-wraiths were a lame idea that got even lamer. The last scene in the Fire Caves where Dukat got the ring of power-- oops, sorry, I meant book -- was copied right out of Tolkein's THE RETURN OF THE KING. It was a sorry supernatural plot that didn't work well. But I loved the mystery of Sisko being chosen to be the Emissary and the slow unfolding hints of what that might mean.

Fire, in the West, is often associated with the demonic and hell. Nothing original in Tolkein's work there.

BTW, Dukat was always evil. As the administrator of a 50 year occcupation that raped Bajor of its natural resources and killed its citizens who resisted, what else could he be?

 

[HRHTheKING]

I always thought that it was more interesting when characters had shades of grey. DS9 had a bad habit of making everything black and white by the end. Wasnt it more interesting when we werent really sure whose side Dukat was on? But then we just knew whatever happened he was going to be evil. Oh and i thought that the PahWraiths were seriosuly dumb, as if we werent able to figure out that Good and Evil are opposing forces. As to FakeBashir not killing Sisko when he had the chance, thats not making a concession. They had nothing to gain by not killing him until later. If the writers had planned this out, Fake Bashir would have killed Sisko on the table and blamed it ont he surgery. They have nothing to gain by not doing that and it was a perfect opportunity. The writers messed up there.

It can be seen as a concession. Why bother killing just one man which might be viewed with suspicion when you can inflict far greater damage to the entire Bajoran system?

 

[Navaros]

BTW, Dukat was always evil. As the administrator of a 50 year occcupation that raped Bajor of its natural resources and killed its citizens who resisted, what else could he be?

Dukat was like you said, just an administrator. He wasn't the one responsiblie for any bad things that happened during the occupation and actually he did his best to improve conditions for Bajorans.

What else can he be is a man doing his job to the best of his ability. Granted he is very egotistical, but that doesn't make him evil. That's just a cute character quirk.

And originally they had written an ending for Waltz in which Dukat came off as sympathetic and not evil, so it's quite easy for Dukat to have not been evil even by the writers' own hands. Unfortunately, Ira won the "let's go with the ending that fubars Dukat at the end of Waltz" battle. But Dukat could have carried on as a great, non-evil character had Ira not done that.

 

[HRHTheKING]

Dukat was like you said, just an administrator. He wasn't the one responsiblie for any bad things that happened during the occupation and actually he did his best to improve conditions for Bajorans.

That was Dukat's spin on things.

 

[Jono]

I wouldn't say it was perfect but I thought it was good.

If you are going to have a religious theme in the story you can't have the Good without Evil. If you have Gods, then you need devils/demons to balance it out. With Dukat going fully evil I have no problem with because we know he was not a nice person. He had some good qualities and did some good things (like look after Ziyal) but he was always looking out for one person only, himself.

As for changeling Bashir, I enjoyed the little twist when he appeared in the dominion prison. The writers might have only just thought about it when they did the episode but it I enjoyed it. As for killing Sisko, is Sisko really that important (in the eyes of the Dominion) that he needs to be killed? Sure he is the commander of DS9 but he can be easily replaced with little fuss. As for his connection to the prophets we don't know what the Dominion thinks about them, they never show much interest in the wormhole aliens so they might consider it all inconsequential. Sisko after all is just a man.

 

[Zeppster]

I wouldn't say it was perfect but I thought it was good.

If you are going to have a religious theme in the story you can't have the Good without Evil. If you have Gods, then you need devils/demons to balance it out. With Dukat going fully evil I have no problem with because we know he was not a nice person. He had some good qualities and did some good things (like look after Ziyal) but he was always looking out for one person only, himself.

As for changeling Bashir, I enjoyed the little twist when he appeared in the dominion prison. The writers might have only just thought about it when they did the episode but it I enjoyed it. As for killing Sisko, is Sisko really that important (in the eyes of the Dominion) that he needs to be killed? Sure he is the commander of DS9 but he can be easily replaced with little fuss. As for his connection to the prophets we don't know what the Dominion thinks about them, they never show much interest in the wormhole aliens so they might consider it all inconsequential. Sisko after all is just a man.

I'm curious how a changling learned to do major brain surgery

 

[HRHTheKING]

I wouldn't say it was perfect but I thought it was good.

If you are going to have a religious theme in the story you can't have the Good without Evil. If you have Gods, then you need devils/demons to balance it out. With Dukat going fully evil I have no problem with because we know he was not a nice person. He had some good qualities and did some good things (like look after Ziyal) but he was always looking out for one person only, himself.

As for changeling Bashir, I enjoyed the little twist when he appeared in the dominion prison. The writers might have only just thought about it when they did the episode but it I enjoyed it. As for killing Sisko, is Sisko really that important (in the eyes of the Dominion) that he needs to be killed? Sure he is the commander of DS9 but he can be easily replaced with little fuss. As for his connection to the prophets we don't know what the Dominion thinks about them, they never show much interest in the wormhole aliens so they might consider it all inconsequential. Sisko after all is just a man.

I'm curious how a changling learned to do major brain surgery

Maybe at the same time they learned how to genetically engineer the Jem Hadar.

 

[Jono]

I'm curious how a changling learned to do major brain surgery

Probably the same way real doctors do. They read about it, watch operations and then maybe a bit of holographic practice.

Given the Founder knew he was replacing a doctor it would have taken some steps in preparing itself to fill that role otherwise it would be as useful as Dr. Zoidberg.

 

[scorpius1701]

I always thought that it was more interesting when characters had shades of grey. DS9 had a bad habit of making everything black and white by the end. Wasnt it more interesting when we werent really sure whose side Dukat was on? But then we just knew whatever happened he was going to be evil. Oh and i thought that the PahWraiths were seriosuly dumb, as if we werent able to figure out that Good and Evil are opposing forces. As to FakeBashir not killing Sisko when he had the chance, thats not making a concession. They had nothing to gain by not killing him until later. If the writers had planned this out, Fake Bashir would have killed Sisko on the table and blamed it ont he surgery. They have nothing to gain by not doing that and it was a perfect opportunity. The writers messed up there.

It can be seen as a concession. Why bother killing just one man which might be viewed with suspicion when you can inflict far greater damage to the entire Bajoran system?

Its not a concession. Fake Bashir could have killed Sisko on the table and then blown up the sun. Nothing stopping him. The reason he didnt is that the writers werent thinking that far ahead.