The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoilers)

[JirinPanthosa]

Moderators: I couldn't find a thread for Game of Thrones where you were not allowed to talk about novels that had not aired on TV yet. If one exists, feel free to move this post to that thread.

In this thread, please consider the spoiler level to be it's okay to talk about things that have already aired on television but not things from novels.

I finally caught up with Game of Thrones and seen season 3. Now, I heard that because of the Red Wedding a lot of people got really pissed and threatened to quit the show. And the South Park parody also made it seem like a lot of really likable characters that had been thoroughly developed were killed.

Then I saw the episode and found out it was only Rob and Catlin Stark.

Is this really what outraged people? First off, it was obvious Rob was going to cause his own downfall the minute he broke his word to marry Lord Fray's daughter. It was even more obvious he was going to die in a hurry when he lost the Carstark's. Second off, he was never one of the more likable characters. If it were, say, Arya or Tyrian, I would totally get it. But was Rob ever that popular a character?

 

[sidious618]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

Robb was a favorite, especially among women, and Catelyn was liked by quite a few people (including yours truly). Plus, we had the pregnant Talisa brutally stabbed and Grey Wolf arrowed. Looking at the macro picture, this heralds the end of the North in the war of the kings. I'd say it was pretty freaking brutal.

 

[theenglish]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I never heard any "outrage", but rather surprise and WTF comments.

I think what throws people is that there is not really a major protagonist "good guy" to the series. Ned Stark was the closest, and after him people imagined it would be Rob.

For me, the series is about those who are weak struggling against odds to become more powerful--and it has been since A Clash of Kings. This is not to say those who are weak survive or win, but it is the journey for those characters that is interesting.

I guess what I am saying is that Caitlin's death was more emotional for me than Rob's (maybe because we always got her perspective in the books) and that the characters I grew attached to were the younger children.

Man, you made it hard by not allowing spoilers after season three!!!

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

This is pretty much how I felt about it because... "I read the fucking books".

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLCOvZOh1o[/yt]

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I liked Robb and Catelyn more early in the series than in season 3. In season 3 their story seemed stagnated, all Robb did the season was alienate allies. In fact, I would say given his decisions leading up to his death, having him still win wouldn't have made sense. And, while it was terrible to see Robb's wife killed like that, they really didn't develop her that much in the TV series, so my connectedness to her wasn't there.

I would list my favorite characters though as Arya, Tyrian, Denerys, Bran, and my favorites among the secondary cast include Samuel and Brien. My favorites all survived the season in ways that made it seem like their role would expand in the future, and even my 'Love to hate' characters like Tiwyn survived.

I suppose it would feel different if they were your favorite characters, but it makes a difference to me because they weren't innocent heroes butchered for no reasons, they were characters who made bad decisions that predicted their death.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

It was shocking to me because Robb Stark was the character driving the plot, even though he was often off-screen. He was the one leading the war against the King and winning.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

But is that really the plot?

 

[Mr Light]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I would say that the show is about the civil war between the various "Kings", and it all started because Robb Stark declared war over his father's death.

 

[Starkers]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I love Game of Thrones, but I have to say I found season 3 a bit much at times. And it wasn’t even just The Red Wedding, although that was pretty brutal, if anything it was the torture of Theo that disturbed me more, even though he kinda had it coming to him it was just so relentless and sadistic. Earlier in the season Jamie losing his hand was pretty fucked up as well.

I’m not a prude, I’m not opposed to violence and brutality in fiction in the slightest and I appreciate that GoT is set in a brutal world, but season 3 did feel a little like the producers of the show were saying “How can we outdo ourselves” and that’s worrying if they keep that going, because I don’t want to keep watching a show going out of its way to shock the audience just because it can.

It also bothered me that none of the villains seemed to get any comeuppance in S3. Again it’s not like I expect the good guys to always win, not like I really think there are any genuine good guys in GoT, but I’d like to see the producers throw us the occasional bone, it’d be quite cathartic to see a few people get their comeuppance, even if I can appreciate they’re probably not going to kill Joffrey any time soon and I appreciate that they don’t want to deviate too much from the books.

A friend described season 3 as Medieval Hostel and that seems a fair assessment in some ways. Brutality is fine but I want the story to lead the violence, not the other way around.

 

[selina]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I never heard about an outrage regarding the wedding, but it was definitely one of the biggest WTF moments I ever had while watching a tv-series. I remember sitting home alone and saying aloud: "Now, I didn't see that coming".
Then again I don't read the books and I avoid spoilers like the plague. However, it surprises me that JirinPanthosa in the original post states that Robb's death was obvious. I assumed there would be consequences, given that he broke his word but not such dramatic ones. Frey could have denied access to his bridge (it was a bridge, wasn't it?) and withdrawn his troops instead of killing everyone. And to be fair, Robb offered a replacement, Edmure Tully. Not an ideal solution, but in medieval times people had a much more pragmatic attitude towards marriage.

Furthermore, it isn't just about the popularity of these characters, but more about the brutality and disrespect for human dignity with which the slaughtering took place. Arya got lucky because she arrived a few minutes too late. Frey wouldn't have spared her. And now Frey is on good terms with the Lannisters, of course, for killing their strongest opponent. This tells me that killing the Starks was really about power, not about honour. So, the whole dynamic changes. Which is a good thing and the reason why I love this show, but ... yeah ... it was definitely a WTF moment that led to this.

 

[Takeru]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I would say that the show is about the civil war between the various "Kings", and it all started because Robb Stark declared war over his father's death.

I always thought declaring war over Ned's death almost made Robb a bad guy.
If you think about it Joffrey had every right to execute Ned, he had just publicly confessed to treason and that he wanted to get rid of Joffrey and claim the throne for himself, his execution was politically stupid but justified especially Joffrey didn't know the truth about his parents.
The Starks aren't even opposed to chopping people's heads off, Ned killed the poor schmuck who ran from the Night's watch and Robb executed Lord Karstark for not following his orders and murdering the Lannister boys and he sees nothing wrong with that but if his father is executed for treason that means war? Robb was a hypocritical asshat who obviously thought rules applied to others but not the Starks. I'm glad he's dead, he was a dumbass.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I love Game of Thrones, but I have to say I found season 3 a bit much at times. And it wasn’t even just The Red Wedding, although that was pretty brutal, if anything it was the torture of Theo that disturbed me more, even though he kinda had it coming to him it was just so relentless and sadistic. Earlier in the season Jamie losing his hand was pretty fucked up as well.

I’m not a prude, I’m not opposed to violence and brutality in fiction in the slightest and I appreciate that GoT is set in a brutal world, but season 3 did feel a little like the producers of the show were saying “How can we outdo ourselves” and that’s worrying if they keep that going, because I don’t want to keep watching a show going out of its way to shock the audience just because it can.

It also bothered me that none of the villains seemed to get any comeuppance in S3. Again it’s not like I expect the good guys to always win, not like I really think there are any genuine good guys in GoT, but I’d like to see the producers throw us the occasional bone, it’d be quite cathartic to see a few people get their comeuppance, even if I can appreciate they’re probably not going to kill Joffrey any time soon and I appreciate that they don’t want to deviate too much from the books.

A friend described season 3 as Medieval Hostel and that seems a fair assessment in some ways. Brutality is fine but I want the story to lead the violence, not the other way around.

It's not really the producer's fault considering all those things happened (with some minor changes) in the books. Blame Martin!

 

[Starkers]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I haven't read any of the books, so I could be mistaken but, for example, I don't beleve a pregnant woman's stabbed in the womb in the books.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

if anything it was the torture of Theo that disturbed me more

I couldn't believe that Dr. Huxtable didn't even care when they sent him his son's severed penis, and left it up to Rudy to form a rescue party. That was a dark season.

I don't know if I'd call the reaction most people (who hadn't read the books) had "outrage." It was more shock. I know lots of people who were shocked by the Red Wedding, and a couple who half-seriously said they'd quit watching, but they were back for the next episode and they'll be back for this next season. Me on the other hand, I was one of those jerks who was laughing his ass off as everyone else in the house who hadn't read the books was screaming "WTF just happened?!!!"

 

[Marc]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I would say that the show is about the civil war between the various "Kings", and it all started because Robb Stark declared war over his father's death.

Wasn't helped by his mother's capture of Tyrian and taking him to the Eyrie either.

 

[Anwar]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

Well, Catelyn had the word of a Lord on the Small Council and the word of a High Lady (Lysa) condemning Tyrion. In Westeros, that's usually enough. We sympathized with Tyrion through it all because we could see his inner thoughts and already knew he was innocent. Catelyn wouldn't have known that.

Anywho, about the "Villains get no comeuppance" thing. S3 was just half of the 3rd book's story, so we get the rest in S4. Don't worry...

EDIT: The real reason the villains keep on surviving is because eventually Daenerys will return to Westeros, and she'll kill most of her opposition (or try to). If the good guys were still around by the time she got there, she'd kill them too. Since we're supposed to see Daenerys as a big hero, she couldn't do this. So to preserve her heroism, the villains have to keep surviving and the heroes losing so there won't be any major heroes active for her to kill.

 

[FPAlpha]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

I love Game of Thrones, but I have to say I found season 3 a bit much at times. And it wasn’t even just The Red Wedding, although that was pretty brutal, if anything it was the torture of Theo that disturbed me more, even though he kinda had it coming to him it was just so relentless and sadistic. Earlier in the season Jamie losing his hand was pretty fucked up as well.

I’m not a prude, I’m not opposed to violence and brutality in fiction in the slightest and I appreciate that GoT is set in a brutal world, but season 3 did feel a little like the producers of the show were saying “How can we outdo ourselves” and that’s worrying if they keep that going, because I don’t want to keep watching a show going out of its way to shock the audience just because it can.

It also bothered me that none of the villains seemed to get any comeuppance in S3. Again it’s not like I expect the good guys to always win, not like I really think there are any genuine good guys in GoT, but I’d like to see the producers throw us the occasional bone, it’d be quite cathartic to see a few people get their comeuppance, even if I can appreciate they’re probably not going to kill Joffrey any time soon and I appreciate that they don’t want to deviate too much from the books.

A friend described season 3 as Medieval Hostel and that seems a fair assessment in some ways. Brutality is fine but I want the story to lead the violence, not the other way around.

It's not really the producer's fault considering all those things happened (with some minor changes) in the books. Blame Martin!

But then again that's the brilliance of the books and the show.. the heroes don't always win just like in real life. Sometimes, no matter how good your intentions or how noble you are, you won't win because the other side is simply better or has more ressources or is using methods you won't consider.

Martin himself said it that he wanted to write something different because we all grew up with stories where no matter how dire the situation was we always knew that the main heroes would make it.. battered and bruised maybe but they would make it and win in the end.

Westeros is a far more brutal and unforgiving place and thus feels more real where you will be afraid everytime a character you like end up in a tight spot because you know it can go either way and at times it has.

 

[Anwar]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

Well, to be honest a lot of the villain victories have been due to sheer good luck, not actual skill on their behalf. Similarly, the good guys suffered due to things beyond their control and sheer bad luck.

And there are plenty of Plot-Protected characters. Honestly, if Martin treated Tyrion the way he treated lesser characters then he'd be dead like 200 times over.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

Moderators: I couldn't find a thread for Game of Thrones where you were not allowed to talk about novels that had not aired on TV yet. If one exists, feel free to move this post to that thread.

In this thread, please consider the spoiler level to be it's okay to talk about things that have already aired on television but not things from novels.

I finally caught up with Game of Thrones and seen season 3. Now, I heard that because of the Red Wedding a lot of people got really pissed and threatened to quit the show. And the South Park parody also made it seem like a lot of really likable characters that had been thoroughly developed were killed.

Then I saw the episode and found out it was only Rob and Catlin Stark.

Is this really what outraged people? First off, it was obvious Rob was going to cause his own downfall the minute he broke his word to marry Lord Fray's daughter. It was even more obvious he was going to die in a hurry when he lost the Carstark's. Second off, he was never one of the more likable characters. If it were, say, Arya or Tyrian, I would totally get it. But was Rob ever that popular a character?

I'm sure you'll say you would've responded the same but it sounds like you did have the brunt of the impact softened by knowing what was coming beforehand.

 

[theenglish]

Re: The deaths in GoT season 3: Why the outrage? (Season 1-3 spoiler

Anwar, I agree, but sometimes you can only see the "plot protected" characters in retrospect.

As for the brutality, Martin's story is directly influenced by his study of history. I would say that his portrayal of the brutality is probably tame compared to what actually happens in war. In fact, much more brutal things go on in real life than in this series.

Look at photos of piles of bodies where entire villages have been burned in Central America of the eighties, African countries in the nineties, or look at the brutality in Syria today. Much worse happens to pregnant women than being stabbed in the womb. How many have to suffer torture and gang-rape before being killed? How many people are burned with flaming oils, or dismembered, or have their entrails torn out in front of their family and loved ones. In many parts of the world this is today (let alone the Middle Ages) a fact of life for the people living there.