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The Case Against Scotty

YARN

Fleet Captain
NOTE: Don't be a blockhead and take this thread too seriously. We all love Scotty.

1.
The Charge: Exaggerating repair estimates.

The Evidence: Star Trek III and Relics

In Star Trek III it's played as an apparent joke:

James T. Kirk: How much refit time before we can take her out again?

Montgomery Scott: Eight weeks, Sir, [Kirk opens his mouth] but ye don't have eight weeks, so I'll do it for ye in two.

James T. Kirk: Mr.Scott. Have you always multiplied your repair estimates by a factor of four?

Montgomery Scott: Certainly, Sir. How else can I keep my reputation as a miracle worker?


In TNG Relics, however, we learn that this is no joke:

SCOTT: Do you mind a little advice? Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way, but the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want.

LAFORGE: Yeah, well I told the Captain I'd have this analysis done in an hour.

SCOTT: How long will it really take?

LAFORGE: An hour.

SCOTT: You didn't tell him how long it would really take, did you?

LAFORGE: Of course I did.

SCOTT: Oh, laddie, you've got a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker. Now listen

LAFORGE: Captain Scott. I've tried to be patient, I've tried to be polite. But I've got a job to do here, and quite frankly, you're in the way.

The Significance: When your Captain asks how long it will take to fix the warp drive while fighting off a Romulan Warbird, this is NOT the time to play head games so that you can look like a genius. Think about it, in all these crisis situations, how often was Kirk lied to about information upon which the lives of the entire crew depended?

2. The Charge: Sexual Harassment/Inappropriate Behavior

The Evidence: Who Mourns for Adonis, The Lights of Zetar

Scotty develops the occasional crush on junior officers.

In Who Mourns for Adonis, Scotty develops an infatuation with Carolynn. He puts her on the spot to get coffee on the bridge in front of the Captain and the ship's Doctor, she could hardly say no. McCoy sees this, and tells the Captain that he doesn't like it (he's into her, but she's not into him). Later on, Scotty jeopardizes the lives of the crew when he get jealous over Adonis cutting in.

In The Lights of Zetar, Scotty (the ship's second officer) crushes on another Lieutenant. After the alien contact, Scotty stops hanging out in the engine room and stays by her bedside, running for interference for Lt. Romaine when she resists Kirk's and McCoy's orders. Kirk calls engineering, but he's not at his post.

The Significance: Even Kirk knows better than to mess with the crew. There is a conflict of interest between his position of power, her duties, and his desires. And as one might expect, his infatuation interferes with his job duties in both instances.

3. The Charge: Misogyny

The Evidence: Wolf in the Fold

MCCOY: My work, Jim. This is prescription stuff. Don't forget, the explosion that threw Scotty against a bulkhead was caused by a woman.

KIRK: Physically he's all right. Am I right in assuming that?

MCCOY: Oh, yes, yes. As a matter of fact, considerable psychological damage could have been caused. For example, his total resentment toward women.

KIRK: He seems he's overcoming his resentment.

MCCOY: Of course, in my professional opinion, when he gets back to the ship, he's going to hate you for making him leave Argelius. But then he will have lost total resentment toward women.

Yep, one accidence in engineering and Scotty has total resentment toward women. And then what happens? Once again, Scott show an interest in a woman who appears to be half his age, and the next thing you know she winds up dead. How severe was that resentment? We don't know, but what we do know is that when women started winding up dead, this closest colleagues didn't really know themselves. His resentment was so great, apparently, that even they had their doubts about Mr. Scott.

The Significance: Scotty has always taken a paternalistic attitude toward women, patting them on the head (verbally) and calling them "lass" and explaining things to them like they were children. Now, if one bump on the head is enough to make Scotty TOTALLY RESENT women, then something was probably already wrong in the first place. Why not resent the person who did it? Why not resent the conditions which created the accident? No, this was proof for Scott, at some deep emotional level, that women were to blame for his problems. Imagine, for example, that Uhura accidentally bonked McCoy on the head and Bones suddenly developed a "total resentment toward all negroes." This episode reveals that Scotty has some real issues here.

4. The Charge: Alcoholism

The Evidence
: Any episode where Scotty has more than 15 lines.

The Significance: He's the chief engineer on military/science research vessel which is constantly dealing with life and death engineering challenges.
 
The first one is spot on. I just watched this season 1 episode from Voyager where the conversation goes somewhat like this.

B'Elanna: Captain, I'll have it ready by tomorrow.
Janeway: Thank you LT but I'd like it ready by this afternoon.
B'Elanna: No, CAPT you don't understand. When I say tomorrow, I mean I can't have it ready until tomorrow. I don't exaggerate my repair estimates.
Janeway: *Smiles. "Ok, tomorrow then."

THANK YOU B'ELANNA

Yeah, that's right, I just compared B'Elanna to Scotty. Fight me.
 
Charge 2:

I would throw out the Lights of Zetar evidence. Scotty and Mira Romaine had a little "thing" going, so it was consensual, not harassment. :luvlove::luvlove:

As for Carolyn Palamas, sure he was ogling her, but he wasn't her supervisor or anything. Besides, who wouldn't ogle Leslie Parrish? :drool: :razz:
 
Umm, why wouldn't the "bloated estimates" thing be a joke the second time around, too? That's exactly how old geezers tell jokes to strangers - they're long and winding tall tales where it may take the better part of an hour for an inexperienced listener to realize he's being had.

Timo Saloniemi
 
C'mon, no one around here has padded estimates to buy themselves a little extra time? When your boss asks you how long something will take and you say, "I'll have it to you at the end of the day," and it's there on their desk before they leave, are they usually appreciative? Do they say, "Great job getting this to me exactly when you said you would?" No, at most you'll get a, "Thanks."

Now, if you tell them, "Tomorrow," and then have it on their desk by the end of the day, suddenly they're impressed.

Doing the former will keep you in your position for a while. Doing the latter will put you on the fast-track to promotion (or, if your boss is an insecure jerk who is threatened by you, on the fast-track to being let go ;)).

I figure Scotty is smart enough to know when to pad and when to be honest. In the middle of a battle? Honest. In the middle of a quiet period when he knows Kirk will just be impatient and ungrateful? Pad like Hell!
 
Clearly he is! Like said, that's exactly like 100% of the past-60 jokesters I know...

Timo Saloniemi
 
C'mon, no one around here has padded estimates to buy themselves a little extra time? When your boss asks you how long something will take and you say, "I'll have it to you at the end of the day," and it's there on their desk before they leave, are they usually appreciative? Do they say, "Great job getting this to me exactly when you said you would?" No, at most you'll get a, "Thanks."

Now, if you tell them, "Tomorrow," and then have it on their desk by the end of the day, suddenly they're impressed.

Doing the former will keep you in your position for a while. Doing the latter will put you on the fast-track to promotion (or, if your boss is an insecure jerk who is threatened by you, on the fast-track to being let go ;)).

I figure Scotty is smart enough to know when to pad and when to be honest. In the middle of a battle? Honest. In the middle of a quiet period when he knows Kirk will just be impatient and ungrateful? Pad like Hell!

Absolutely. Working in a tech field I do this all the time. An added practical benefit is that if--as they often do--unforseen problems crop up--you have padding in your time estimate so you can still deliver on-time even if the task takes longer than expected.
 
Umm, why wouldn't the "bloated estimates" thing be a joke the second time around, too? That's exactly how old geezers tell jokes to strangers - they're long and winding tall tales where it may take the better part of an hour for an inexperienced listener to realize he's being had.

Timo Saloniemi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufkh1cKG8Dw

Watch the clip - he's not telling jokes there.

(1)Scotty begins by telling Laforge that he's giving him advice. (2) Laforge certainly did not see the interaction as an attempt at humor. (3) And Scotty leaves in a huff and tells Laforge (again) that he is trying to help him (not amuse him). (4) The point of the story was that Scotty was no longer useful, not that he was bad at telling jokes. He was hanging out in engineering trying to be helpful, because he was used to being an engineer. (5) You are Timo so you will argue any point :p.
 
C'mon, no one around here has padded estimates to buy themselves a little extra time? When your boss asks you how long something will take and you say, "I'll have it to you at the end of the day," and it's there on their desk before they leave, are they usually appreciative? Do they say, "Great job getting this to me exactly when you said you would?" No, at most you'll get a, "Thanks."

Now, if you tell them, "Tomorrow," and then have it on their desk by the end of the day, suddenly they're impressed.

Doing the former will keep you in your position for a while. Doing the latter will put you on the fast-track to promotion (or, if your boss is an insecure jerk who is threatened by you, on the fast-track to being let go ;)).

I figure Scotty is smart enough to know when to pad and when to be honest. In the middle of a battle? Honest. In the middle of a quiet period when he knows Kirk will just be impatient and ungrateful? Pad like Hell!

Absolutely. Working in a tech field I do this all the time. An added practical benefit is that if--as they often do--unforseen problems crop up--you have padding in your time estimate so you can still deliver on-time even if the task takes longer than expected.

The only problem with that mindset is the fact that Scotty could play that game in a non life threating situation and get away with it but his CAPT will probably remember the time he was told to complete it. Farther down the road they could encounter a dangerous situation and when the CAPT is considering options that are time sensitive he wouldn't have the accurate knowledge in his head. What if he discounted a particular option that would have saved the ship only because he was remembering the correct time to complete the task was wrong. Or he thought that the option would take too long.

It comes across as somewhat cute in Star Trek but it has dangerous application in the real world. Just answer honestly and then advise accordingly as variables arise.
 
Any sensible person would allow themselves some wiggle room in an estimate.

If for example I put my car in for repair and I'm told it'll be ready at the end of day, I expect it to be ready by then at the latest. Not the day after.

In the case of TSFS, sure the ship could be flown after a fortnight, but with the full 8 weeks it would no doubt have been in better shape.

So it might be a case of she'll be able to be flown in 2 weeks, but I need 8 weeks to get everything up and running.
 
The first one is spot on. I just watched this season 1 episode from Voyager where the conversation goes somewhat like this.

B'Elanna: Captain, I'll have it ready by tomorrow.
Janeway: Thank you LT but I'd like it ready by this afternoon.
B'Elanna: No, CAPT you don't understand. When I say tomorrow, I mean I can't have it ready until tomorrow. I don't exaggerate my repair estimates.
Janeway: *Smiles. "Ok, tomorrow then."

THANK YOU B'ELANNA

Yeah, that's right, I just compared B'Elanna to Scotty. Fight me.

Janeway: "Fine, I'll have Seven do it... she'll have it done within the hour."

B'Elanna's mouth is agape at being utterly PWNED, and she picks up an object and throws it across Engineering as she storms off in a huff like the little brat she always was and is.

Sorry, but I never liked B'Elanna or her damn attitudes. Janeway always should have done something like this to her.
 
As others have pointed out, a little wiggle room or "buffer zone" is a good thing. The fact is that the captain doesn't have the time to learn about all the ins and outs of the task and how much can be shaved off to save time, and to appreciate what shavings may induce a far more tenuous situation. Some things can't be skipped or minimized, and Scotty knows what those are better than the Captain.

Scotty did embellish a bit, joking about how it's what makes him appear as a miracle worker. However, consider a few things: First, is that if Scotty always gave too high an estimate, the captain (and others) would figure it out and give him guff about it. It's not like unique things go wrong all the time; there are bound to be "the usual problems". Second, is that there's the "shortcut" way and the "thorough" way. The shortcut is risky and may incur other problems (or a disaster), whereby the thorough way (the "bloated" estimate) means it's done the right way and is a very reliable repair.

I can't cite them specifically, but I know that there have been episodes where things have been fixed, and then they break again in the next skirmish. Probably broken faster, because of the less thorough repair that was done.

So, I think it's more of a matter of Scotty preferring to do the thorough job, and letting the captain fight back on it because the Captain knows the real urgency of the situation (Scotty's usually elsewhere, like engineering). It's the push/pull of crisis management.
 
As others have pointed out, a little wiggle room or "buffer zone" is a good thing. The fact is that the captain doesn't have the time to learn about all the ins and outs of the task and how much can be shaved off to save time, and to appreciate what shavings may induce a far more tenuous situation. Some things can't be skipped or minimized, and Scotty knows what those are better than the Captain.

Scotty did embellish a bit, joking about how it's what makes him appear as a miracle worker. However, consider a few things: First, is that if Scotty always gave too high an estimate, the captain (and others) would figure it out and give him guff about it. It's not like unique things go wrong all the time; there are bound to be "the usual problems". Second, is that there's the "shortcut" way and the "thorough" way. The shortcut is risky and may incur other problems (or a disaster), whereby the thorough way (the "bloated" estimate) means it's done the right way and is a very reliable repair.

I can't cite them specifically, but I know that there have been episodes where things have been fixed, and then they break again in the next skirmish. Probably broken faster, because of the less thorough repair that was done.

So, I think it's more of a matter of Scotty preferring to do the thorough job, and letting the captain fight back on it because the Captain knows the real urgency of the situation (Scotty's usually elsewhere, like engineering). It's the push/pull of crisis management.

But the push-pull depends on the most accurate information available. If Kirk thinks it will take another 2 hours - minimum to get the warp drive back up, he might (himself) engage in a super-risky attack (since no retreat is possible) that gets people killed.

Also,

SCOTT: Do you mind a little advice? Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way, but the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want.

This sounds more like keeping the grumpy man-child off your back than carefully managing information in a crisis. Also note, that for Scott to only give the Captain what he "needs" means he must have the most superior vantage point of all (even though he is, as you note, stuck down in engineering he must know best what he needs). He is, in effect, deciding that he is over and above the Captain and only gives him the information he really thinks he needs.

NOTE: So we're all agree that he is a misogynist and an alcoholic? :eek:
 
C'mon, no one around here has padded estimates to buy themselves a little extra time? When your boss asks you how long something will take and you say, "I'll have it to you at the end of the day," and it's there on their desk before they leave, are they usually appreciative? Do they say, "Great job getting this to me exactly when you said you would?" No, at most you'll get a, "Thanks."

Now, if you tell them, "Tomorrow," and then have it on their desk by the end of the day, suddenly they're impressed.

Doing the former will keep you in your position for a while. Doing the latter will put you on the fast-track to promotion (or, if your boss is an insecure jerk who is threatened by you, on the fast-track to being let go ;)).

I figure Scotty is smart enough to know when to pad and when to be honest. In the middle of a battle? Honest. In the middle of a quiet period when he knows Kirk will just be impatient and ungrateful? Pad like Hell!

Absolutely. Working in a tech field I do this all the time. An added practical benefit is that if--as they often do--unforseen problems crop up--you have padding in your time estimate so you can still deliver on-time even if the task takes longer than expected.

This is very true. While I'm not as extreme as a factor of four, I'll do this in my field too. Half the time an unforseen problem -will- crop up and need to be addressed, one that can't be forseen in the original estimate.

Perception is a powerful thing in getting jobs, and you'll be seen in a more negative light if you give short estimates and fail to deliver even a fifth of the time than you would be by giving longer ones and usually getting it done sooner. It's just a human facet.
 
I tried using Charge #1 at the professional level for a big project -- it didn't go so well with my bosses. I've never tried it again, to be sure. Perhaps Kirk is a stack of books with legs, but maybe he's not a great engineer?
 
The first one is spot on. I just watched this season 1 episode from Voyager where the conversation goes somewhat like this.

B'Elanna: Captain, I'll have it ready by tomorrow.
Janeway: Thank you LT but I'd like it ready by this afternoon.
B'Elanna: No, CAPT you don't understand. When I say tomorrow, I mean I can't have it ready until tomorrow. I don't exaggerate my repair estimates.
Janeway: *Smiles. "Ok, tomorrow then."

THANK YOU B'ELANNA

Yeah, that's right, I just compared B'Elanna to Scotty. Fight me.
Janeway: "Fine, I'll have Seven do it... she'll have it done within the hour."

B'Elanna's mouth is agape at being utterly PWNED, and she picks up an object and throws it across Engineering as she storms off in a huff like the little brat she always was and is.

Sorry, but I never liked B'Elanna or her damn attitudes. Janeway always should have done something like this to her.
It would have taken considerably more than an hour, given that Seven wasn't on the show in Season 1.
 
The first one is spot on. I just watched this season 1 episode from Voyager where the conversation goes somewhat like this.

B'Elanna: Captain, I'll have it ready by tomorrow.
Janeway: Thank you LT but I'd like it ready by this afternoon.
B'Elanna: No, CAPT you don't understand. When I say tomorrow, I mean I can't have it ready until tomorrow. I don't exaggerate my repair estimates.
Janeway: *Smiles. "Ok, tomorrow then."

THANK YOU B'ELANNA

Yeah, that's right, I just compared B'Elanna to Scotty. Fight me.

Janeway: "Fine, I'll have Seven do it... she'll have it done within the hour."

B'Elanna's mouth is agape at being utterly PWNED, and she picks up an object and throws it across Engineering as she storms off in a huff like the little brat she always was and is.

Sorry, but I never liked B'Elanna or her damn attitudes. Janeway always should have done something like this to her.

Eh, it really struck me as Janeway was the one with an attitude in that exchange demanding something be done in an unrealistic amount of time.
 
The first one is spot on. I just watched this season 1 episode from Voyager where the conversation goes somewhat like this.

B'Elanna: Captain, I'll have it ready by tomorrow.
Janeway: Thank you LT but I'd like it ready by this afternoon.
B'Elanna: No, CAPT you don't understand. When I say tomorrow, I mean I can't have it ready until tomorrow. I don't exaggerate my repair estimates.
Janeway: *Smiles. "Ok, tomorrow then."

THANK YOU B'ELANNA

Yeah, that's right, I just compared B'Elanna to Scotty. Fight me.

Janeway: "Fine, I'll have Seven do it... she'll have it done within the hour."

B'Elanna's mouth is agape at being utterly PWNED, and she picks up an object and throws it across Engineering as she storms off in a huff like the little brat she always was and is.

Sorry, but I never liked B'Elanna or her damn attitudes. Janeway always should have done something like this to her.

Eh, it really struck me as Janeway was the one with an attitude in that exchange demanding something be done in an unrealistic amount of time.
3

Yeah, granted B'Elanna was a hothead but I just watched this episode and this exchange was not hostile in the least. B'Elanna was very respectful when she said these things. She was just letting the CAPT know she doesn't play those stupid "miracle worker" games.
 
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