The Borg

[TheCaptainsLog]

So I have some problems with the concept of The Borg.

First and foremost - who the fuck flies around in a giant rubix cube? Does each cube come from a bigger cube, like tiny cubes pooping out of a greater, larger cube?

Second, why are those being assimilated only humanoids? Are you telling me that the Borg are sophisticated enough to develop large interstellar cubes but they can't assimilate anything other that is generally ape-like? Why not giant spiders or sharks with lasers on their heads?

Third, Borg seem to make babies in microwaves. If you can microwave your own babies, why do you need to assimilate other cultures at all?

Fourth, Picard was what Locutus of Borg or something like that? And people just forget that he was captured by a deadly enemy and was their leader and then he becomes an admiral or something and no one questions it?

Finally, Picard had the chance to destroy the Borg forever by implanting a virus into their netscape or hive mind or whatever and chose not to do so because ... life? Bad call bro.

 

[at Quark's]

1. Probably cubes are either built from scratch, or assimilated ships are gradually transformed into cubes (we see some possible evidence of this in ENT: Regeneration).
2. They aren't all humanoids. 7 of 9 described one of the places where they assimilated: Galactic cluster three is a trans-material energy plane intersecting twenty-two billion omnicordial life-forms. Whatever these lifeforms are, they don't sound humanoid. Species 8472 also seemed only humanoid in the vaguest general body plan terms. (The real life reason is of course budget constraints. In the original Borg concept, they were supposed to be insectoid.)
3. They probably do both. Why limit yourself to only one option if you want to grow as efficiently as possible?
4. There are some traces of people distrusting him (or harboring anger towards him) afterwards (e.g. Admiral Satie, Sisko). Granted, not many, and perhaps more could have been made of it, but in classical TNG, the consensus seems to be that people of good will forgive Picard.

Finally: Picard couldn't because of his conscience, as he saw that Hugh could develop in an individual and he thought that could be the best virus of all. Apparently, he miscalculated, and admiral Nechayev told him he should have acted differently in no uncertain terms (whether you agree with that or not).

 

[fireproof78]

Third, Borg seem to make babies in microwaves. If you can microwave your own babies, why do you need to assimilate other cultures at all?

Because it's not just about reproduction but adding to the collective. The whole point of the Collective is to, um, collect things, the distinctiveness, the strengths and knowledge of other cultures gets added in to their database. That's the whole point; not reproduction but actual gaining of knowledge.

Second, why are those being assimilated only humanoids? Are you telling me that the Borg are sophisticated enough to develop large interstellar cubes but they can't assimilate anything other that is generally ape-like? Why not giant spiders or sharks with lasers on their heads?

Who says they are not? They might look at efficiency and assign like species to the same Cube to manage the space the best possible way.

 

[TheCaptainsLog]

Who says they are not? They might look at efficiency and assign like species to the same Cube to manage the space the best possible way.

Well I say they are not. In Star Trek IV The Voyage Home why are there not Borg-like super whales in giant cubes slowly moaning towards earth to ... uh I don't remember, destroy it? If there is humanoid Borg there must be humanoid whales in giant cubes, that's what I'm saying mate.

 

[fireproof78]

Well I say they are not.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In Star Trek IV The Voyage Home why are there not Borg-like super whales in giant cubes slowly moaning towards earth to ... uh I don't remember, destroy it?

Because the purpose was not destruction but to reconnect and then searching for where the whales went.

So...not like the Borg at all.

If there is humanoid Borg there must be humanoid whales in giant cubes, that's what I'm saying mate.

So, you say there are not nonhumanoid Borg, yet then declare there are giant humanoid whale Borg in giant cubes? I'm confused.

 

[Qonundrum]

So I have some problems with the concept of The Borg.

I don't have any answers, just observations. I don't even have a date, but I do have some walnuts and diet cola...

First and foremost - who the fuck flies around in a giant rubix cube? Does each cube come from a bigger cube, like tiny cubes pooping out of a greater, larger cube?

I'll concede that I had that kneejerk action at first in 1988 with "Q WHO". But... why not? In space, aerodynamics is as necessary as my not needing to shower for a week before going to a bar because I don't go there. Whatever that means. But the shape, with perfect dimensions, represents them really really well. "The Best of Both Worlds" definitely nails the camera angles and perspectives.

Second, why are those being assimilated only humanoids? Are you telling me that the Borg are sophisticated enough to develop large interstellar cubes but they can't assimilate anything other that is generally ape-like? Why not giant spiders or sharks with lasers on their heads?

At first, "Q WHO" again, we're told they just take technology (like the Pakleds) and make babies in those EZ Bake oven things. All via assumption. In TBOBW, all of a sudden, now the Borg need a figurehead locus for this group of galactic locusts - enter Locutus.

Third, Borg seem to make babies in microwaves. If you can microwave your own babies, why do you need to assimilate other cultures at all?

This is why I don't look ahead when responding - I already like your sarky sardonic wit!

But if they can't make enough babies to grow fast enough, then kidnapping others and assimilating them helps add to the ranks faster and, in some ways, more effectively. They can't just stand there tapping their hydraulic tootsies waiting for little baby bumper drone there to grow big and strong...

Fourth, Picard was what Locutus of Borg or something like that? And people just forget that he was captured by a deadly enemy and was their leader and then he becomes an admiral or something and no one questions it?

Later episodes in the TV show do reflect on the aftermath. The 1996 movie pretends those episodes didn't happen. It also has the Queen making some BS dialogue about three dimensional wibbets instead of a more reasonable explanation that the Borg, who came up with the idea of Locutus (and probably other stepping stones to large-scale assimilations), now wanted a more permanent fixture.

As said by @at Quark's , most officers forgave him because Picard didn't do it. The Borg, using Locutus as a puppet, had. Picard was powerless to help, despite having brain and body hijacked.

Finally, Picard had the chance to destroy the Borg forever by implanting a virus into their netscape or hive mind or whatever and chose not to do so because ... life? Bad call bro.

The ditched idea, that of a MC Escher painting that would get the Borg stuck in a fatal loop simply would not have worked - the Borg would have process control monitors and trap any errant/looped processes. They may adapt to phaser frequencies in a linear fashion, but taking the Enterprise to study its technology - they'd see an analogue of such a process, if not having one already because the Federation won the Borg skirmish by pure luck. Also, Picard and co damaged the Borg, creating a far bigger horror - the Borg inverted and now elevated to a true horror movie that would make even Freddie and Jason pee their pants in terror. It's a shame that "Descent II" dropped the ball of what was set up beautifully in pt 1 (even with the craptacular wallpaper muzak) in favor of 43 minutes of garbage, but it's all good.

 

[TheCaptainsLog]

The ditched idea, that of a MC Escher painting that would get the Borg stuck in a fatal loop simply would not have worked - the Borg would have process control monitors and trap any errant/looped processes. They may adapt to phaser frequencies in a linear fashion, but taking the Enterprise to study its technology - they'd see an analogue of such a process, if not having one already because the Federation won the Borg skirmish by pure luck. Also, Picard and co damaged the Borg, creating a far bigger horror - the Borg inverted and now elevated to a true horror movie that would make even Freddie and Jason pee their pants in terror. It's a shame that "Descent II" dropped the ball of what was set up beautifully in pt 1 (even with the craptacular wallpaper muzak) in favor of 43 minutes of garbage, but it's all good.

Now that's pure speculation. The fiction asserted that it would work, so we go with that, just like the fiction asserts that warp drive is real and somehow Counsellor Troi doesn't have VD.

 

[NCC-73515]

there is nothing to forgive because he was taken over, abused, his control suppressed.
assimilation to acquire more bio and tech.
picard chose not to abuse an innocent teen for genocide, not that bad a call.
maybe watch all those eps again...?

 

[The Wormhole]

why are those being assimilated only humanoids?

Probably because an overwhelmingly majority of aliens in the Trek universe are humanoids.

 

[Qonundrum]

Probably because an overwhelmingly majority of aliens in the Trek universe are humanoids.

Yup. Real-life considerations being budget and as this isn't Lost in Space from 1965 anymore, or Doctor Who from 1963, you simply can't have an actor crawling around with a papier-mâché bag over their heads anymore. Not without a really strong script and acting to rise above it. Or puppets where 14~20-hour production days, 5 days a week, with the cast getting royally stressed and angry, but I digress. At some point, gotta roll with it. The fact so many actors get caked in latex requiring 4-hour application sessions should be a not-unreasonable middle ground, if not caking them in shoe polish or cake mix or whatever. Without a good script, it could cost $400.02 Zillion and it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[Fuddles]

Probably because an overwhelmingly majority of aliens in the Trek universe are humanoids.

Yes, and the people portraying them on screen are human actors.

But yes, Picard should have taken out the Borg when he had the chance. Shouldn't have even questioned it.

 

[at Quark's]

Probably because an overwhelmingly majority of aliens in the Trek universe are humanoids.

Which makes me wonder, the moment Starfleet ships starts to venture beyond our home galaxy (*), would the races they meet become overwhelmingly non-humanoids? (Presumably those ancient races that supposedly spread humanoid (genetics) across the galaxy would not have extended their efforts to, say M33 or the Andromeda Galaxy).

(*) Probably this will happen sooner or later, as apparently the feel is that Alpha, Beta, Gamma, or Delta Quadrants have been 'done'. Of course this is nonsense, given the actual stupendous size of the galaxy that would still keep Starfleet explorers busy for centuries. Voyager, for example only saw a tiny sliver of the Delta Quadrant.

 

[TheCaptainsLog]

Yes, and the people portraying them on screen are human actors.

But yes, Picard should have taken out the Borg when he had the chance. Shouldn't have even questioned it.

fucking finally someone agrees with me after 30 years

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding Picard's decision in "I Borg"...

Yes, he should have used it on them. He had the opportunity to end a threat to not only the Federation, but to the galaxy. The Borg have killed or assimilated trillions of people from thousands of races. Because he didn't even attempt the plan, everyone who was killed or assimilated by the Borg from that point forward, Picard bears some of the responsibility.

Admiral Necheyev was absolutely correct when she told him that his job was to "safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not wrestle with your conscience".

It's a terrible thing because those assimilated are also victims... but when faced with such an existential threat, you have to end that threat before even MORE people become victims.

Morality is an excellent thing... but it doesn't do a damn thing when you are surrounded by dead people and you get turned into a mindless, cybernetic zombie.

 

[NCC-73515]

That's why 31 infected the founders. Nechayev probably was working with 31, that would make perfect sense. Doesn't make it right to, as Guinan put it, use a person to destroy his race, like 31 used Odo.

 

[at Quark's]

Regarding Picard's decision in "I Borg"...

Yes, he should have used it on them.

I don't think it would have mattered much anyway. I have trouble believing that an anomalous picture would have brought the Borg down in the first place. You'd expect them to have a bit more sophisticated malware/virus/screening protection features than that. (Though I agree that the 'sleep' command in BOBW shouldn't have worked for the same reason.)

 

[TheCaptainsLog]

I don't think it would have mattered much anyway. I have trouble believing that an anomalous picture would have brought the Borg down in the first place. You'd expect them to have a bit more sophisticated malware/virus/screening protection features than that. (Though I agree that the 'sleep' command in BOBW shouldn't have worked for the same reason.)

no no I thought the plan was to imbed it into an existing borg and plant it back on the ship. Like it would be installed manually. So are you suggesting that the borg would do a complete malware scan upon re-entry (would make sense)? But, if you have a borg hostage you should be able to understand its programming and be able to hide things from the malware screen, or at least the most recent update.

 

[at Quark's]

no no I thought the plan was to imbed it into an existing borg and plant it back on the ship. Like it would be installed manually. So are you suggesting that the borg would do a complete malware scan upon re-entry (would make sense)? But, if you have a borg hostage you should be able to understand its programming and be able to hide things from the malware screen, or at least the most recent update.

I would expect such a malware scan; but I also would assume the collective consciousness is smarter than to let themselves be caught in an infinite destructive feedback loop (even if individual drones perhaps aren't). I mean, this is supposed to be the combined brainpower of trillions; if simple individuals such as Geordi and Data can think it up, certainly the Borg collective consciousness should be able to spot the danger.

 

[TheCaptainsLog]

I would expect such a malware scan; but I also would assume the collective consciousness is smarter than to let themselves be caught in an infinite destructive feedback loop (even if individual drones perhaps aren't). I mean, this is supposed to be the combined brainpower of trillions; if simple individuals such as Geordi and Data can think it up, certainly the Borg collective consciousness should be able to spot the danger.

What is Group Think? The military and IC address this all the time. My feeling is that having a hive mind leads to a situation where critical thinking does not exist and is a fatal flaw. Keep in mind, you may have trillions of individual computers but it is still one central chip controlling the show.

 

[DonIago]

I feel as though thinking Our Heroes' plan could really have worked isn't giving the Borg enough credit.

Even Hugh's individuality, while it compromised one or a handful of cubes, was ultimately deemed enough of a threat that the Borg presumably cut off that section of the Collective with insignificant damage being done overall. I think it's safe to say the pretty picture would have inflicted roughly the same amount of damage.