The Allure of Orions?

[Bry_Sinclair]

ENT established that Orion females had a pheremone that was responsible for their desirability, which made them the real power among their species. It made men want them and women ill.

But what about homosexuals? As one I can say I have no interest in women (even green ones) in a sexual way.

In the Trekverse are men of all presuasions affected the same? Whilst lesbians suffer headaches and lethargy?

Thoughts?

 

[Albertese]

I would guess so, as it is a purely hormonal drive. I imagine a homosexual might feel some very unfamiliar and uncomfortable urges.

I guess I don't know really where sexual orientation happens. I have always assumed it's a product of the brain. And yet, these pheromones seem to target a person based not on their neurology, but on their biology. And since a normal healthy person will produce all the right hormones specific to their biological gender regardless of their preferred sexual orientation, I would imagine that the Orion chemistry would have the same physiological effect regardless of orientation.

--Alex

 

[The Wormhole]

Actually, I remember when Bound first aired this was a major complaint among the reviewers. The episode was very much a reworking of Mudd's Women, which can be excused for not addressing the homosexual issue, because, you know, 1960s. But in 2005 it really was a pretty shocking oversight.

 

[Shawnster]

ENT established that Orion females had a pheremone that was responsible for their desirability, which made them the real power among their species. It made men want them and women ill.

But what about homosexuals? As one I can say I have no interest in women (even green ones) in a sexual way.

In the Trekverse are men of all presuasions affected the same? Whilst lesbians suffer headaches and lethargy?

Thoughts?

If it's purely a chemical/neurological response, then a homosexual male may be aroused. However, that doesn't mean they would act on that arousal. Further, that doesn't mean their brain might not argue with their heart over the arousal - "I'm aroused but I don't want to be."

Chemical response. Stimulus response. The old wise tale about pubescent boys being aroused while riding their bicycles. This doesn't mean the boy is sexually attracted to the bicycle. Or the aspect that a man or woman being raped or molested might have a physical response of arousal. This doesn't mean they are attracted to their molester or rapist.

So, maybe a gay man will also get a migraine but only because he's aroused and doesn't want to be.

Actually, I remember when Bound first aired this was a major complaint among the reviewers. The episode was very much a reworking of Mudd's Women, which can be excused for not addressing the homosexual issue, because, you know, 1960s. But in 2005 it really was a pretty shocking oversight.

I think the drug in Mudd's Women was different. We just didn't see any lesbian viewpoints. Why wouldn't the drug have the same affect on a lesbian that it did on the straight males? The straight females were not depicted as being aroused or attracted to the women, were they? Maybe gay characters would react as normal - gay men would not be affected since they were not attracted to the women. No migraines.

 

[Chen]

Just did some research on that so I'm not talking rubbish...

Fresh sweat in guys contains a hormone that attracts women (we're talking fresh, not rancid BO because EWW). I'm a guy, and I find that attractive. I don't know if that has any bearing on whether or not I'd be enthralled by an Orion woman's pheromones, but I don't think I'd act on anything... (although I guess none of us can categorically say whether we would or wouldn't!)

I guess this is a tough call, because it's an alien pheromone and would therefore depend on the male's species in theory (although we see humans affected on screen). Shame we can't try it and find out!

 

[eyeresist]

ENT established that Orion females had a pheremone that was responsible for their desirability, which made them the real power among their species. It made men want them and women ill.

But what about homosexuals?

Everyone knows there are no gays in Star Trek.

Human pheromone attraction is a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Pheromone_Myth

 

[Orphalesion]

It was a badly written episode. The whole thing with "the Slave Girls are the real power because of their crazy sex pheromones" is about as emancipated as Angel One.

 

[mos6507]

It was a badly written episode. The whole thing with "the Slave Girls are the real power because of their crazy sex pheromones" is about as emancipated as Angel One.

^^^

Amen. The episode should be considered apocryphal.

The allure of Orion women is because of their cultural reputation and attitude. Bringing up pheromones is the Trek equivalent of "midichlorians".

Same deal with Deltans as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

^ As far as I can remember, Deltans were never said to possess enhanced sex pheromones, rather considered humans (and other races) as 'sexually immature'.

When you look at our own world and how different cultures and countries view and practice sex, I can get behind (pardon the pun) a race who are more sexually vigorous / adventurous / experienced than humans of the 23rd/24th centuries--for all we know their biology might be hazardous to other races when it comes to connecting.

I wish we'd seen more of the Deltans.

I do agree that the ENT Orions were horribly written, as such whenever I use them I either mostly ignore the pheromone thing or have it that the gland was removed.

 

[t_smitts]

I hadn't really thought about that, though it makes sense. For what it's worth, we saw a female Orion on the bridge of the ISS Avenger just two episodes later without any apparent problems.

Actually two things that DID bother me:

-The term "Orion Syndicate" was introduced on DS9 as this sort of interstellar-sounding criminal organization. It was obviously not meant to have any relation to the Orion race. None of the people affiliated with it we saw on the show were Orions.

-Trip comes off as kind of a d ! ck in this episode. At the start of the episode (even before the Orion brainwashing), Kelby is acting defensive towards Trip because he thinks Trip is going to take his job back, despite Trip's assurances otherwise. Then, at the end of the episode, Trip DOES take his job back, and in fact, had made the arrangements several days earlier! (Probably before he was reassuring Kelby that he wouldn't do that). On top of that, he comes off wholly unprofessional for abandoning Captain Hernandez and Columba so soon after launch, when their shakedown time probably isn't even finished.

 

[The Wormhole]

-The term "Orion Syndicate" was introduced on DS9 as this sort of interstellar-sounding criminal organization. It was obviously not meant to have any relation to the Orion race. None of the people affiliated with it we saw on the show were Orions.

I don't know about that. The novels did associate Orion Syndicate with the TOS Orions long before Enterprise even premiered, so it wasn't something Enterprise misinterpreted.

 

[t_smitts]

-The term "Orion Syndicate" was introduced on DS9 as this sort of interstellar-sounding criminal organization. It was obviously not meant to have any relation to the Orion race. None of the people affiliated with it we saw on the show were Orions.

I don't know about that. The novels did associate Orion Syndicate with the TOS Orions long before Enterprise even premiered, so it wasn't something Enterprise misinterpreted.

True, but since novels aren't canon, it's quite possible that, much like much of the Vulcan Awakening fanon that was contradicted by the Kir'Shara trilogy, the writers may have ingored what was written in the novels or not been aware of it at all.

 

[The Wormhole]

-The term "Orion Syndicate" was introduced on DS9 as this sort of interstellar-sounding criminal organization. It was obviously not meant to have any relation to the Orion race. None of the people affiliated with it we saw on the show were Orions.

I don't know about that. The novels did associate Orion Syndicate with the TOS Orions long before Enterprise even premiered, so it wasn't something Enterprise misinterpreted.

True, but since novels aren't canon, it's quite possible that, much like much of the Vulcan Awakening fanon that was contradicted by the Kir'Shara trilogy, the writers may have ingored what was written in the novels or not been aware of it at all.

All I'm saying is there's obviously a common source the Enterprise writers and novel authors got the idea that the Orion Syndicate was linked to TOS Orions. It wasn't something the Enterprise writers made up themselves. Probably not, anyway.

 

[dswynne1]

Two things:

1) I have no problem with the pheromones in a sentient species like the Orions. In fact, on Earth, there are plant and animal species that have such equivalent to attract targets for consumption. As for the Orions use of it: the question is how it is used. My theory is, like the Vulcan mental powers, unleashing pheromones is a special ability that Orions can do on a whim. And considering the fact that the Orions is a matriarchal society, it stands to reason that Orion females would use as a means of control. I also believe that "Bound" was badly-written, but only because it didn't do the Orions proper service (i.e. males should be able to emit pheromones, if not on a larger level).

2) I always thought that the Orion Syndicate is the equivalent of the "privateers" (pirates under the authority of a government) or today's "security contractors" (like "Black Water"). I presume that just because you don't see an Orion at the FOH, that doesn't mean that they don't operate at the BOH. In fact, you can work for the mob without being a "made man".

Food for thought.

 

[eyeresist]

The whole thing with "the Slave Girls are the real power because of their crazy sex pheromones" is about as emancipated as Angel One.

The allure of Orion women is because of their cultural reputation and attitude.

So "Orion women are mega-sluts" is more empowering than "Orion women control minds with pheromones"? Sheesh.

we saw a female Orion on the bridge of the ISS Avenger just two episodes later without any apparent problems.

That was the mirror universe, raising the possibility that Orions are different in that universe, or, more likely and more in keeping with precedent, the Terran empire requires all serving Orion females to be "fixed".

 

[Chen]

Are they not able to control when they use their pheromones? Otherwise I would imagine life could get fairly disconcerting/dangerous for all Orion women at some point!

 

[USS Triumphant]

I suspect that the pheromones might cause *some* gay men to experience the equivalent of "gay rage"* and become very hostile to the source of the thing that is causing them to have sensations and experiences contrary to their own chosen or socially enforced identities.

* gay rage - an overwhelmingly hostile and violent response experienced by some people with homosexual feelings and a strong social reason to deny them, when they encounter an open homosexual and/or someone who arouses those feelings in them.

Also, the impression I had of Orion Slave Women from TOS when I was 10 and saw that episode for the first time was that normally they were of subhuman intelligence - basically animals with an attractive human shape - and that Vina-as-slave-woman was only an exception because she wasn't really one, she was just looking like one. BUT, pretty much always when that sort of thing has been said about people it turns out to be racist BS. I thought the Enterprise episode was a cop out. It would have been much more powerful and in the socially challenging tradition TOS established if they had done a good episode that dealt with the Orion pirates and human (well, okay, Orion) trafficking. (Something like the similar "Star Trek Continues" episode, but without the endlessly harpy and overly obvious preaching. )

 

[Timo]

Heck, ENT went the easy and dull route when establishing that Orions are the green guys!

Before ENT, we only knew that the green gals were "Orion slave girls". Possibly just a green species being trafficked by the Orions (who themselves were as blue as shown in TAS, or then a conglomeration of species, a crime syndicate as in DS9, or whatever), then. Or possibly women of whichever species, tattooed green as a mark of servitude.

As for the true effect of the pheromones, we know it doesn't work on Tucker, and it doesn't work on T'Pol, and T'Pol offers speculation as to why this might be. But what it does on the other folks is simple enough: it gets them drunk, after which the Orion women can tell them what to think and what to do.

We see no attraction to the Orion women unless the women actively command the men to be attracted. We see general passivity from those the Orion women fail to explicitly command.

It's way different form the tears of the Elasians, which are a direct enslaving agent with no actual aphrodisiac qualities. Kirk may be confused, but he's also enslaved to the Dohlman specifically, not vulnerable to suggestion generally.

It's way different from the Venus Drug, which merely makes the user radiate self-confidence and therefore appear more attractive. The males are attracted, the women either attracted or jealous - but this is not drug-induced behavior, it's something Kirk's crew naturally does. His ill-disciplined men have been led with their balls on a leash before, not because they were under a spell, but because that's what they do ("Man Trap").

What it perhaps the most closely resembles is being eaten inside by a Ceti Eel...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

Heck, ENT went the easy and dull route when establishing that Orions are the green guys!

Before ENT, we only knew that the green gals were "Orion slave girls". Possibly just a green species being trafficked by the Orions (who themselves were as blue as shown in TAS, or then a conglomeration of species, a crime syndicate as in DS9, or whatever), then. Or possibly women of whichever species, tattooed green as a mark of servitude.

Well, yeah, from the above suggestions there are hundreds of ways they could have gone. They made one choice and it was okay.

As for the true effect of the pheromones, we know it doesn't work on Tucker, and it doesn't work on T'Pol, and T'Pol offers speculation as to why this might be.

It's because they're in lurv, obviously.

 

[Sci]

The whole thing with "the Slave Girls are the real power because of their crazy sex pheromones" is about as emancipated as Angel One.

The allure of Orion women is because of their cultural reputation and attitude.

So "Orion women are mega-sluts" is more empowering than "Orion women control minds with pheromones"? Sheesh.

Both of those tropes are misogynistic. The first is obviously so -- the mindless sex object who lives to fulfill men's sexual pleasure. But the second is no less so -- the dangerous siren whose sexuality is so potent that she is a danger to men's self-control. Both of these tropes have been used in narratives that justify patriarchal social structures for centuries, and neither one is genuinely "empowering."