Tanks!

[Santaman]

So, we already have an airplane thread but I assume that most of us techies also are interested in those lovable armoured beasties.

So, what is your favourite tank? And why?
What tank you don't like? Is it the colour or the lack of flashy features?

As for me, First war tanks are interesting but the "fun" for me starts at around WW2, that's about when things got serious, my favourite WW2 tank is the Matilda II, no it wasn't the best tank but interesting it was, two engines, mainly because it was really heavy, it had very thick armour and for the time a rather smashing gun, of course it was also veeeeeery slow and couldn't be upgunned.

I also like the Chieftain, Leopard 1 and the Swedish S tank, the Chieftain mainly for the sound of its engine, it's a two stroke 6 cylinder opposed piston engine and it sounds bonkers.

As for current era tanks, Leopard 2 is my favourite but I also Loooooove the T-72 for its ability to launch its turret into the air, but it's good that Russia only has these and not real modern tanks.

So, tell me your view on things.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Aren't tanks (and artillery and infantry) obsolete in the age of the drone? Hasn't the war in Ukraine demonstrated that drone warfare is more cost effective?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Aren't tanks (and artillery and infantry) obsolete in the age of the drone? Hasn't the war in Ukraine demonstrated that drone warfare is more cost effective?

Not really, modern Shotguns with advanced Metal Bird Shot is a cheaper counter to Drones.

Everybody is finding cheap ways to down drones.

Portable high wattage Lasers are getting closer to mass production where it costs literal pennies for each shot to down a drone.

A small network of laser turrets will provide a nice Area Barrier/Hemi-Spherical Volume of protection against drones.

Eventually Drones will be a viable, but a easily countered technique.

But all military vehicles will eventually gain cheap "Active Protection Systems" in the form of Lasers / Auto-Turret Shotguns / other forms of Anti-Drone weaponry.

Spoiler: Task & Purpose - NATO's New 3 Cannon Tank is Legitimately Insane

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France + Germany making a New Joint Euro-Tank, their concept is INSANE.

140mm Ascalon SmoothBore Main Cannon w/ ranges up to 5 km (Current Ammo has 18 MJ @ Muzzle w/ future innovations up to 20 MJ).
(NOTE: BTW, it'll have less ammo than the 120mm rounds due to up-sizing of Round Diameter.)
_30mm Auto-Cannon (In it's own turret mount on top)
_20mm Co-Axial Auto-Cannon (In it's own turret mount on top)

Any one of those 3x guns would be considered the "Main Gun" on it's own vehicle Platform.

Yet they want to shove ALL 3x onto the same Tank Chasis!

It's like they looked at WarHammer 40k & said YES! More Dakka!

And SCREW Weight, just let it go up. Current specs are at 61 Tons for the new "Euro Tank"

While the M1A4 (Abrams X) is going on a massive diet to lower weight to be < 60 tons.
The current 120 mm used by Abrams and most existing Western tanks have around 15 MJ of Muzzle Energy Maximum.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I wouldn't dismiss drones so readily. Ones that are camoflaged, stealthed and/or lurk still have potential, especially given their relative cheapness. How about unmanned, autonomous or remote-controlled fighting vehicles? Do they have more of a future? Should the neutron bomb (enhanced radiation weapon) and the nuclear land mine be deployed again for use against massed infantry and tank formations? I assume all likely scenarios are wargamed ad nauseam nowadays to develop tactics. AI must certainly have a role.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I wouldn't dismiss drones so readily. Ones that are camoflaged, stealthed and/or lurk still have potential, especially given their relative cheapness. How about unmanned, autonomous or remote-controlled fighting vehicles? Do they have more of a future? Should the neutron bomb (enhanced radiation weapon) and the nuclear land mine be deployed again for use against massed infantry and tank formations? I assume all likely scenarios are wargamed ad nauseam nowadays to develop tactics. AI must certainly have a role.

The drones that they use in the Ukrainian conflict for Kamikaze Attacks or Cheapo Bombings; the vast majority come from cheap Commercial off the Shelf resources / models.

They aren't fancy Camoflage / Stealth units that you use due to costs & availability.
Anything that is Camoflage / Stealth are used for recon specifically.
Anything with a "High Price Tag" will be kept out of direct conflict.

Remote/Robotic any platform always has a future, but more for Sentry Duty, Scouting, Mine Laying / Detecting / Removal.

If you need a Guinea Pig for any reason, send a Drone/Robot of some form.
Best to sacrifice them then a actual person.

Nuclear Anything would be stupid in the current Ukraine conflict given how close their troops are on land on both sides, the EU theater is too close to their own civilian population on both sides.

AI does have a role, but it's very specific & niche.
Drone AI will be invaluable along with Computer Vision Object ID & War Game Predictions.
But it's no the "End All / Be All".

Everything will have it's obvious place in the Theater of War.

Oh yeah, in the video, they keep repeating that Germany + France co-operating always had historical difficulties.
Since you're in the UK, is there any truth to that on a historical basis?
The difficulties must go beyond just "both sides using Metric & 'We're Good'?"
So what kind of difficulties are there in terms of National Co-Operation in joint ventures @Asbo Zaprudder ?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yeah, I'm talking generally - not the Ukrainian war specifically. Enhanced radiation weapons (neutron bombs) and nuclear land mines were available to NATO during the Cold War for use against a massed invasion of West Germany by Warsaw Pact forces. I expect most were dismantled, but the plans for constructing them probably still exist. Neither types of weapon are beyond the capabilities of France or the UK to build. As Russia would be unable to mount a massed invasion of anywhere for several years yet, there's time available to redevelop such weapons.

Nothing is obvious in the theatre of war or Russia would have achieved its aims in Ukraine in 2022, and America, its aims in Vietnam in 1964.

AI could potentially optimise tactical or strategic plans in real time based on incoming data, by running numerous Monte Carlo simulations of potential outcomes. I would be surprised if this wasn't implemented years ago, being constantly refined ever since.

 

[Santaman]

Tanks will always be needed, drones can't keep ground, also, modern tanks are just one part of a larger whole, Leopard 2 A6 and beyond can fire at targets which are pointed on by an aircraft, anyone on the ground and so on, everything is networked, also, the current gun they use for example is precise enough to shoot helicopters out of the air, the new Panther design will probably have a 130mm gun with the capability to shoot air-to-air and antitank missiles.

Tanks are not invulnareble but they don't have to be, you penetrate the armour on a T-72 or any other cold war era Russian tank and the ammo will cook off and launch the crew into the stratosphere simultaniously cremating them, hit the ammo magazine on an Abrams, Leo2 or Challenger two and the ammo will blow out a specially designed panel, you can literally drive back and they weld in a new armoured ammo compartiment, it's the crew that they want to keep alive, western tanks excell at that, also, you can change most bits of these, they're very modular, even the big ass 47.7 liter engine and gearbox of the Leo2 can be swapped in under 30 minutes.

As for cooperating, we're NOT the united states of europe, goals, desires, language you name it is different for every country, Challenger 2 is great for what the Brits wanted but less suited for Germany or France, LeClerc is what the French doctorine came up with, fast, light and with a fast autoloader, the Germans are like: nein! and they keep developing Leopard and the new Panther tank which are heavily armoured.
France and Germany talking cooperation, that's been going on for quite some time, a lot of the talks were about discussions about mounting the LeClerc's turret onto the Leopard 2's chassis to create a very advanced tank.

AI, that is a all bets are off game now, can be good or go horribly wrong and no I don't mean Skynet

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

France and Germany talking cooperation, that's been going on for quite some time, a lot of the talks were about discussions about mounting the LeClerc's turret onto the Leopard 2's chassis to create a very advanced tank.

They already did that, go watch the video I linked.
There's already signed agreements between France & Germany + working Proto-Types.
There's even a new combined company that has 50/50 Ownership between the two major Countries Premier Tank Companies.

But Rheinmetall wants to get in on the Main Gun Caliber by presenting it's 130mm Solution instead of the current proposed 140mm Solution.

Again, this gets very political as to what will be the next great Tank Caliber, will 130mm or 140mm replace the common NATO 120mm spec?

 

[Santaman]

130 or 140mm, cannons are strange and unpredictable beasts, personally I lean towards the 130mm option, might be smaller but a tank can hold more ammo because the shells will be smaller, the 140mm will be a relative short gun as to stay within a reasonable length and a 140mm gun will be bulkier and heavier than a 130mm one and the weight budget can be better used for armour and other neat stuff.

I hope that for a future tank they'll keep Leopard 2's engine, there's nothing coming even close to that monster, 47.666 liter and it was actually designed for a fast rocket patrol boat which had 4 of those on board, the engine can be run at full power for as long there's fuel so reliability is top notch, 1500, might be soon 1650 horsepower, and at least 4700 Newton meter of torque are no joke.

As for tanks I like, I always liked the good olf British Chieftain, which has one of the stranger engines out there, the 19 liter Leyland L60 6 cylinder opposed piston engine, the first versions were horrible but the later ones were pretty okay.

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A good look around a Chieftain tank which is in need of a restauration.

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[Asbo Zaprudder]

You don't win over hearts and minds with either tanks or drones. All you do is fuel violent resentment. Tanks were useless in the end in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, no matter who was operating them.

This thread seems a little too much like big armour pornography driven by testosterone.

 

[Santaman]

I'd wish there weren't any need for weapons at all in this world but that's not happening unless humans change, evolutionary seen we're still the same as eons ago so we have weapons, they won't go away, as for me liking tanks, I like the mechanics of these machines, as much as I like the big 14.000 ton bucket wheel excavators in the lignite mines in Germany or the battleship Yamato, as for testosterone, gimme a break man, I'm 51, that stuff is in very short supply at that age.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'm 51, that stuff is in very short supply at that age

You know they have treatments for that.

Spoiler: IV8888 - My TRT Journey 2 Years In At Age 40

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Billy Gunn is in his 60's and he's more Jacked than he's ever been.

Spoiler: Billy Gunn being more Jacked than he's ever been while he's in his 60's

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There's no reason why you can't look like Billy Gunn if you don't want to.
Granted that takes ALOT of effort, but it's possible.

You don't win over hearts and minds with either tanks or drones. All you do is fuel violent resentment. Tanks were useless in the end in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, no matter who was operating them.

This thread seems a little too much like big armour pornography driven by testosterone.

Tanks gets you to the point where you have local forces try to win over "Hearts & Minds" of the local civilian population and let them handle the remaining conversion & control of the local area.

While Vietnam & Afghanistan didn't work, Desert Storm 2 had it's own insurgency issues with ISIS.

Japan, Kosovo, Iraq worked out for Desert Storm 1

It's not as simple as "It doesn't alway work" or "It'll always work".

There's no One-Tool Solution, every piece of the military puzzle has it's place.

Tanks included.

 

[Santaman]

You know they have treatments for that.

Not here, (netherlands) age related loss of testosteron is normal, you only get trt when a doctor prescribes it which is only when you've got a real healthproblem causing it, otherwise nope, not a chance.

back to history, there's the Bovington tank museum which has a really extensive collection of vehicles of all kinds.

The Tank Museum

The Tank Museum, Bovington, Dorset, UK. Home to the world's best collection of tanks and Tiger 131 - the world's only running Tiger Tank. Subscribe for Tank Chats, Top 5 Tanks, TANKFEST and Tiger Day videos and more. See tankmuseum.org for more information.

www.youtube.com

Also a really nice channel is the one of the Australian armour & artillery museum, they give a sneak peak into what they're restoring or repairing every wednesday and some of the things they do there is VERY complex like putting together a differential.

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And one of my favourite channels, the one of Mr Hewes who has restored the FV 4005 prototype tank which had a ludicrous 183mm gun which it kinda borrowed from a cruiser..

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They did the restoration for the Bovington tank museum with World Of Tanks on board to secure the funding for this project.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Not here, (netherlands) age related loss of testosteron is normal, you only get trt when a doctor prescribes it which is only when you've got a real healthproblem causing it, otherwise nope, not a chance.

I'm sorry to hear that, over here in the US, you can easily get TRT if you go see a doctor and get approved based on your condition.
Health Problem or Not. Assuming you & your Health Insurance can pay for it.

And one of my favourite channels, the one of Mr Hewes who has restored the FV 4005 prototype tank which had a ludicrous 183mm gun which it kinda borrowed from a cruiser..

At that point, they should've designed it as a "Mobile Artillery Unit" instead of a Tank.
That's just over-kill for no reason.
The logistics trail on that thing must be INSANE.

 

[Mondragon]

The Fray Bentos
For a couple of reasons:

Fray Bentos (Spanish pronunciation: [fɾaj ˈβentos]) is a city in south-western Uruguay. Its name, meaning "Friar Benedict", is derived from a reclusive priest, who once settled the area.
Historically, Fray Bentos' main industry has been meat processing. An industrial plant Extract of Meat Company (LEMCO), was founded there in 1863.

To this day Beef is the main export commodity of the small nation with the highest number of cattle per capita in the world.
The Uruguayan canned beef fed armies of Europe through two World Wars

Galipoli (yes that's a can of Fray Bentos)

Soviet film.

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"I was brought up on it. I remember eating corned beef until it came out of my ears," said Prince Charles during a visit to Uruguay in 1999.

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And of course the F41 Tank named after the meat in a Tin Can.

F41 was a male Mark IV commanded by Captain Donald Richardson, who had named the tank “Fray Bentos” after the popular tinned meat product available in the UK.

Trapped: The Story of Fray Bentos - The Tank Museum

Tank F41, named Fray Bentos, was a male Mark IV, number 2329. In August 1917 the nine man crew experienced the longest tank action of WW1.

tankmuseum.org

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[Gingerbread Demon]

The Fray Bentos
For a couple of reasons:

Fed armies of Europe in two Word Wars

Galipoli (yes that's a can of Fray Bentos)

Soviet film.

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And of course the F41 Tank named after the meat in a Tin Can.

Trapped: The Story of Fray Bentos - The Tank Museum

Tank F41, named Fray Bentos, was a male Mark IV, number 2329. In August 1917 the nine man crew experienced the longest tank action of WW1.

tankmuseum.org

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That's such an amazing story.

Tanks for sharing that.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Tanks were invented in the UK during WWI - if you ignore Leonardo Da Vinci's concept art because he didn't invent a power unit.

The first working tank, Little Willie, was designed in 1915 by William Tritton and Walter Wilson for William Foster and Co. of Lincoln, who were given the contract by the Landships Committee led by Winston Churchill to develop a prototype machine that could break the stalemate of trench warfare.

Countermeasures were developed soon after first deployment, the Germans built their own variants, and the arms race has continued ever since.

I still contend land battleships have been rendered obsolete by air power just like their marine counterparts.

Hearts and minds are never won by force, only destroyed, and resentment intensifies. All empires die, sooner or later.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Would a design like the Scorpion from Halo work?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Would a design like the Scorpion from Halo work?

Very large silhouette, so probably not?

I wonder how the drivers of tanks do if the enemy blinds them by spraying paint over their periscope or external cameras, for example.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Isn't the Scorpion half Artillery unit & half tank?