Talos IV death penalty in discovery-non existent

[Garak234]

neither Spock or the whole team of discovery recieves the death penalty for going to Talos IV upon the information reaching Starfleet command when Pike and Spock at the implied suggestion of the Talosians are responsible for General order 7. But more important Michael Burnham never recieves any information on the death penalty and the crew of Discovery if they received info on the Death penalty either didn’t know or didn’t care. In summary the death penalty for visiting Talos IV was likely never implemented and nobody really intended or expected the death penalty if anyone visited Talos IV. It is worth keeping in mind that Mendez in the Menagerie was a hologram and the real Mendez treated the death penalty as a dead letter. Kirk himself didn’t know that much about general order 7 and didn't know that the death penalty provision isn't enforced by starfleet.

 

[Push The Button]

I never understood that. So if I go to Talos IV, what is the threat? Am I going to somehow learn the Talosian power of illusion with my tiny brain and then do.. what exactly? Assuming they don’t lock me in a fishtank between the chicken and the giant spider.

To discourage travel to Talos, violation of general order #7 should have been a life sentence with no parole. The death penalty does not fit in an enlightened 23rd century society.

As for Discovery, maybe it had not been ratified by the Federation until many years after Pike’s first visit there.

 

[fireproof78]

neither Spock or the whole team of discovery recieves the death penalty for going to Talos IV upon the information reaching Starfleet command when Pike and Spock at the implied suggestion of the Talosians are responsible for General order 7. But more important Michael Burnham never recieves any information on the death penalty and the crew of Discovery if they received info on the Death penalty either didn’t know or didn’t care. In summary the death penalty for visiting Talos IV was likely never implemented and nobody really intended or expected the death penalty if anyone visited Talos IV. It is worth keeping in mind that Mendez in the Menagerie was a hologram and the real Mendez treated the death penalty as a dead letter. Kirk himself didn’t know that much about general order 7 and didn't know that the death penalty provision isn't enforced by starfleet.

When was general order 7 instituted?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Another pertinent piece of info is that, on Starbase 11, Mendez said that the Enterprise was the only "Earth ship" ever to visit Talos IV. Trying to split the hair and claim that in that context Earth ship doesn't mean Federation ship isn't going to fly.

The point is, either Starfleet didn't know that the DISCO had visited Talos IV, or its visit was classified above Mendez's head, or there is a third possibility.

The third possibility is that what Kirk was experiencing even at that point on Starbase 11 was part or all of a Talosian illusion, it was the Talosians who were manipulating what Kirk was being told, and they elected to leave out mention of the DISCO's visit and Spock's visit in the interim. This scenario opens up a possible reason for Mendez not to know, which is maybe that the Talosians manipulated Starfleet records. I don't recall whether any of this was ever addressed in DISCO S2.

However, given Section 31's involvement in Control, the DISCO S2 arc, and all of that. I think the simplest explanation is that Starfleet knew of the DISCO's visit to Talos IV at least as far as Section 31, and it was classified way over Mendez's head.

So, in "The Menagerie," the switch to illusion-Mendez probably happened right before he boarded the shuttlecraft with Kirk. Something like, Kirk goes off in a shuttle, illusion-Mendez says he's going too; real Mendez never agrees to go, he just thinks Kirk is going alone.

So, Mendez's briefing to Kirk about General Order 7 was from the real Mendez, and he was only telling Kirk what he knew. The other stuff was secret to him.

 

[Sci]

Is it possible that the death penalty for violating General Order 7 was actually itself part of the Talosians projecting the commodore to Kirk and co.?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Is it possible that the death penalty for violating General Order 7 was actually itself part of the Talosians projecting the commodore to Kirk and co.?

Well, now, that is an intriguing idea, indeed.

That said, I basically discounted that, because narratives of that period on television tended to operate based on certain assumptions regarding narrative exposition, twists, and reveals that make that idea untenable.

To cut to the chase regarding that, Kirk might have heard of the death penalty, whether in some official capacity or simply through scuttlebutt. IMO, the narrative structure more or less requires the death penalty as a legitimate rather than contrived form of jeopardy. When Mendez is revealed to be an illusion, the only aspect that was illusory about him was his presence.

In the resolution, the narration provides us with a very explicit separation between what is real and what is illusion. Uhura relays that the the general order has been rescinded on this occasion. We are, according to the television language of the day, supposed to interpret that as a suspension of the death penalty, communication of everyone being off the hook. There is no indication whatsoever that what we are led to believe is real might in fact be an illusion; everything is all wrapped up in a bow. For lingering doubt to be indicated, there would have to have been some explicit clue that the veil still has not been lifted, whether in the form of a discussion between characters, or voice-over narration, or something like that. "Captain Pike has an illusion, and you have reality. May you find your way as pleasant." The real things are now over on your side, Kirk, while the fake things are over there, on Pike's. Since this is the final word, we are supposed to trust that these words from the Keeper are true.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Is it possible that the death penalty for violating General Order 7 was actually itself part of the Talosians projecting the commodore to Kirk and co.?

That, or it was ten years earlier and the return by Michael and Spock inspired them to make it death penalty.

 

[Timo]

Exactly.

When was general order 7 instituted?

In 2161, when the UFP Starfleet was organized. It's just that the death penalty clause inherent in all General Orders was activated for GO7 on the specific case of Talos IV some time after Pike and Spock chose to recommend it. Thus probably a bit after DIS "If Memory Serves".

And then it was deactivated, when it became evident it didn't serve its purpose. And then it was activated on GO4, the nature of which is not known (save for it having nothing to do with mutinies). And then no doubt again deactivated there but activated on GO 13, when the next starship captain stumbled onto another galaxy-shattering crisis that called for extreme deterrent.

Another pertinent piece of info is that, on Starbase 11, Mendez said that the Enterprise was the only "Earth ship" ever to visit Talos IV. Trying to split the hair and claim that in that context Earth ship doesn't mean Federation ship isn't going to fly.

We can decide that all other missions were censored out of existence, and we can decide it happened in the same process that saw the death penalty clause activated. That is, it had already been several years since "The Cage", so it was way too late to pretend this one did not happen - but the cloak and dagger machinery would go full throttle on the incident where the Discovery and a S31 intel cutter visited, as well as on all later incidents.

Interestingly, and even without DIS input, this also means the SS Columbia never existed. Which only makes sense. Everything in "The Cage" from the teaser on has the heroes within the clutches of the Talosians: the SOS they sail through is an illusion, as evidenced by it instantly transforming into one establishing survivors when the heroes decide this is what they require in order to act. So any records referring to the existence of the Columbia are illusions as well.

So, in "The Menagerie," the switch to illusion-Mendez probably happened right before he boarded the shuttlecraft with Kirk.

The Talosians were messing with our heroes before the teaser already - otherwise Kirk would have learned of Pike's predicament months prior, when the rest of the galaxy was discussing it. Might be there never was any Commodore Mendez, and the Enterprise never visited SB11 where Commodore Stone kept on doing his good work.

Apart from that, we can remove a Mendez and substitute another at any point of the adventure - the Talosians are that good at what they do. That Mendez would absolve our heroes in the end is probably the most dubious bit of them all. After all, he should be dead: him listening in on what happened means he, too, is guilty as sin, and would have been lax in his duties if not organizing an execution squad for himself.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jackoverfull]

I have to point out that the death penalty for violating general order 7 is referred again in Turnabout Intruder, so it can’t be part of the talosian illusion.

Best answer so far is that it was instituted after the events of discovery.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I have to point out that the death penalty for violating general order 7 is referred again in Turnabout Intruder, so it can’t be part of the talosian illusion.

Not exactly. There's a reference to General Order 4, without mention of Talos IV. In "Menagerie," it's General Order 7 that's involved. I always assumed it's supposed to be the same order, and the lazy writers of TI just got the number wrong, but there's a cubic parsec of wiggle room that it's a different order altogether.

Best answer so far is that it was instituted after the events of discovery.

No. Equally plausible is that the DISCO's exploits were classified. It was established in "Menagerie" that the death penalty isn't mandatory, and Mendez seems either completely ignorant of DISCO or mum about it to Kirk.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Is it possible that the death penalty for violating General Order 7 was actually itself part of the Talosians projecting the commodore to Kirk and co.?

Along with "Half Vulcan Science Officer Spock".

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Along with "Half Vulcan Science Officer Spock".

Yes, everything that's dated and offensive was just a Talosian illusion.

 

[GNDN18]

Mendez seems either completely ignorant of DISCO or mum about it to Kirk.

I wouldn’t play poker with Mr. Mendez.

Spoiler: Mums the word.

 

[Indysolo]

...Mendez seems either completely ignorant of DISCO or mum about it to Kirk.

Maybe some writers are completely ignorant of Star Trek.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Maybe some writers are completely ignorant of Star Trek.

Well, it is established in "The Menagerie" that Fleet Command is keeping secrets that are withheld even from the top secret report opened by Mendez for Kirk to look at, things that are over Mendez's head, namely the reason for the death penalty. Give an inch....

 

[XCV330]

Another pertinent piece of info is that, on Starbase 11, Mendez said that the Enterprise was the only "Earth ship" ever to visit Talos IV. Trying to split the hair and claim that in that context Earth ship doesn't mean Federation ship isn't going to fly.

The point is, either Starfleet didn't know that the DISCO had visited Talos IV, or its visit was classified above Mendez's head, or there is a third possibility..

All records of Discovery changed after it was destroyed under peculiar circumstances in 2258.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Exactly.



In 2161, when the UFP Starfleet was organized. It's just that the death penalty clause inherent in all General Orders was activated for GO7 on the specific case of Talos IV some time after Pike and Spock chose to recommend it. Thus probably a bit after DIS "If Memory Serves".

TOS NEVER mentioned this, not even the bogus year 2161. MUST BE another ridiculous retcon.

 

[XCV330]

TOS NEVER mentioned this, not even the bogus year 2161. MUST BE another ridiculous retcon.

maybe if you used more caps I could be certain of your true faith

 

[CorporalCaptain]

CAPS or not, I agree. There's nothing canonical about all General Orders carrying an inherent clause about the death penalty.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It is worth noting that Mendez overlooked The USS Colombia

True. The SS Columbia. It didn't so much visit, though, as crash, never leaving. With only a single survivor.

But excellent point. It makes you wonder whether the reason for the diversion to Talos IV, to see whether there were still survivors from the Columbia, was mentioned in the top secret report.

The idea that no other Earth ship went there doesn't jibe with Vina still being there on the planet. So, maybe she isn't mentioned in the report, either.