Suppose warp drive is invented. What happens next?

[at Quark's]

Not sure where to post, so posting this here. That's because it's not about real science but I'm asking what would happen 'in the real world' in this case.

So, suppose some individual in a neutral country (let's say, Switzerland) posts a prototype warp engine design at several websites with worldwide base of readers (so that even if several government agencies would want to take it down immediately, it would already be too late, the designs would already have been downloaded (anonymously) thousands of times).

Though not yet known at the time of posting, the designs turn out to be both flawless and practical (after months or years of scrutinizing and lab testing). Practical in the sense that a craft prototype could be built by companies the size of companies that build the rockets for 'space tourism' today. However, it's only a 1st generation prototype so the engine cannot do much more than warp 1 (lightspeed).

So, what happens next? What would be a realistic timeline for developing such craft? What would be primary targets? What would governments do, would they still try to restrict access to the tech?

Disclaimer: Just interested in the scenario. There's no secondary goal (such as using the material for writing a sf story).

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Not sure where to post, so posting this here. That's because it's not about real science but I'm asking what would happen 'in the real world' in this case.

Why would anyone want to restrict access? Mainly because a warp drive could make a really devastating weapon is the most obvious answer.

Warp drive is already theoretically possible, but most designs require either negative mass or negative energy density. One design that doesn't require those would allow FTL but the mechanism isn't specified.

New warp drive concept does twist space, doesn’t move us very fast

While it won’t make a useful spaceship engine, it may tell us more about relativity.

arstechnica.com

The timeline might be similar to the Manhattan project or Apollo program, or it might be much longer if many intermediate technologies needed to be developed, say to wrangle the exotic materials required. An initial trial would be unmanned - potentially to survey potential systems for colonisation.

Everything else I leave to your imagination.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The following videos by Sabine might be of help:

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Why warp rives might not work:

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If it were easy, why aren't we knee-deep in aliens?

 

[at Quark's]

Warp drive is already theoretically possible, but most designs require either negative mass or negative energy density. One design that doesn't would allow FTL and doesn't specify the mechanism.

Based on what I've read about it, I wouldn't even call it theoretically possible yet, just not patently impossible (we've found a highly theoretical solution but no guarantee that nature would actually behave in this way under those conditions, and that's not even regarding the 'engineering difficulties' regarding that negative mass/energy density yet). But that may be a matter of language.

The article doesn't specify how fast that 'warp zero' drive could go. Even if it would only attain 'near lightspeed' that would be a tremendous improvement over what we have today.

Also, my intended purpose of this thread was not to primarily discuss whether a warp drive is possible or not, but what current day humanity would do with such a tech if we were to get it today.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

We'd likely find a way to weaponise it. I agree that even achieving near light speed would be a great improvement, but I'm not sure that the warp bubble metric would produce the usual time dilation effect so it would take just over one subjective year to travel one light year. That appears to be the case for the Alcubierre warp metric.

Alcubierre drive - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Time travel might be forbidden because of the chronology protection conjecture that protects causality, but we don't have a theory of quantum gravity to confirm this.

 

[Ronald Held]

There are many theoretical models. several paper have positive energy warp drives.

 

[HIjol]

Much as I wish I thought differently, I have to agree with @Asbo Zaprudder in the part about the Weapon. The way things are, now, I think “weaponization” might be a feisty reaction for some…what I would HOPE is is that a World Consortium of Scientists wouid come together and start the process of “Societasizing”, rather than weaponizing the tech…

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

If it becomes possible, someone will weaponize it. Just the tidal effect of the warp field itself would likely disrupt any object that got too close to it. Accelerate a mass up to nearly the speed of light and then turn off the warp field and you have a potentially devastating kinetic energy weapon.

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[Kamen Rider Blade]

If it becomes possible, someone will weaponize it. Just the tidal effect of the warp field itself would likely disrupt any object that got too close to it. Accelerate a mass up to nearly the speed of light and then turn off the warp field and you have a potentially devastating kinetic energy weapon.

But if Warp Drive does work the same way that it does in ST, then wouldn't it be the space around the vessel that gets moved?

The ship itself would not be gaining any speed, but the bubble of space itself is what is being moved. Anything inside just happens to get dragged along with it.

Literally, the NX-01 Enterprise itself had a episode where the NX-02 Columbia helped it maintain Warp Speed by rebooting the Warp Engines computer to flush out a Klingon Virus to prevent a "Speed-(The Movie) like" bomb where the the Warp Core would Overload if it didn't maintain/increase speed over time. NX-02 was carrying NX-01 in it's extended Warp Bubble.

Once you turn off the Warp Bubble, you basically come back to a stand-still or whatever initial intertia you had before you went to Warp Speed.

Which should be very little if any.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

But if Warp Drive does work the same way that it does in ST, then wouldn't it be the space around the vessel that gets moved?

If you are correct then the vessel's momentum remains unchanged. As soon as the warp field is removed, the object's momentum is with respect to what frame of reference? Some theoreticians argue that the warp bubble cannot be made to move from inside once created. The vessel would just carry on in the same direction with the same velocity. Anything thrown outside the bubble would not transfer any momentum. Really, we need an expert in General Relativity as that's something I haven't studied for over forty years and we never considered any exotic metrics such as these.

The ship itself would not be gaining any speed, but the bubble of space itself is what is being moved. Anything inside just happens to get dragged along with it.

Again, some argue that the bubble cannot be moved from the path of the original vessel. If it can be made to move and is then switched off, how would the vessel inside behave? If its momentum is different from its initial momentum before the bubble was created, that seems like conservation of momentum is broken. I'm also wondering how such a bubble behaves in an existing gravitational field.

Literally, the NX-01 Enterprise itself had a episode where the NX-02 Columbia helped it maintain Warp Speed by rebooting the Warp Engines computer to flush out a Klingon Virus to prevent a "Speed-(The Movie) like" bomb where the the Warp Core would Overload if it didn't maintain/increase speed over time. NX-02 was carrying NX-01 in it's extended Warp Bubble.

Once you turn off the Warp Bubble, you basically come back to a stand-still or whatever initial intertia you had before you went to Warp Speed.

Which should be very little if any.

Again, at rest with respect to what reference frame? Presumably, the initial one, but how is that information conveyed?

Using intuition is probably a bad idea and I'm blowing smoke here. For fiction, I'd just suggest going for consistency that enables an interesting plot device.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If you are correct then the vessel's momentum remains unchanged. As soon as the warp field is removed, the object's momentum is with respect to what frame of reference?

I'd argue that its momentum is the same momentum that it had before going to FTL, just transplanted to the new destination once you drop out of warp.
Ergo, conservation of Momentum.

Some theoreticians argue that the warp bubble cannot be made to move from inside once created. The vessel would just carry on in the same direction with the same velocity. Anything thrown outside the bubble would not transfer any momentum. Really, we need an expert in General Relativity as that's something I haven't studied for over forty years and we never considered any exotic metrics such as these.

The Warp Bubble seems to be firmly attached to the Warp Engines, so where-ever the Warp Engines goes, the Warp Bubble stays relatively fixed around it, regardless of the STL Momentum / Inertial / Rotational vectors of the original vessel that it's attached to.

Again, some argue that the bubble cannot be moved from the path of the original vessel. If it can be made to move and is then switched off, how would the vessel inside behave? If its momentum is different from its initial momentum before the bubble was created, that seems like conservation of momentum is broken. I'm also wondering how such a bubble behaves in an existing gravitational field.

I'd argue that the bubble is attached to the vessel, so regardless of how the vessel is operating in STL (Rotating, moving laterally, etc) the vessel will go @ Warp, in the direction that the Warp Field is programmed to go.

So once you're in FTL at Warp Speeds with the Warp Bubble, you'll appear to move normally in a relatively straight line.

But once you exit, your initial relative momentum / inertia & Rotational momentum / inertia will continue unless you apply a stopping force of some sort.

And Warp Bubbles seem to work just fine around massive Gravitational Fields.

Remember, the Klingon BoP went to Warp Speed in Earth's past within the Atmosphere.

So it can be done w/o issues.

Again, at rest with respect to what reference frame? Presumably, the initial one, but how is that information conveyed?

It continues it's original movement / rotation once you exit Warp Speeds.

Using intuition is probably a bad idea and I'm blowing smoke here. For fiction, I'd just suggest going for consistency that enables an interesting plot device.

Most StarFleet vessels easily comes to stop on a dime at STL.
So moving around at STL with Impulse & Gravity based Drives seems to be trivial.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Sounds great. The important thing for fiction is to be consistent. I have no idea how such a device could be constructed in the real world as it seems there is no consensus on whether it's possible or how it would operate. We haven't even discussed the immense radiation dose that travellers in such a bubble might receive. Probably best discussed in Trek Tech or Fan Fiction. Some people think the US military reverse engineered this technology from crashed UAPs/UFOs decades ago, but if that were true, surely they wouldn't still be spending billions, nay trillions, of dollars on developing and deploying the old stuff. We haven't even discussed Trek's inertial dampening, but I suspect that's a lot more tricky as atomic structure is crucially dependent on the inertial mass of the electron to which atomic radius is inversely proportional. Again, it's Trek Tech.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Sounds great. The important thing for fiction is to be consistent. I have no idea how such a device could be constructed in the real world as it seems there is no consensus on whether it's possible or how it would operate. We haven't even discussed the immense radiation dose that travellers in such a bubble might receive. Probably best discussed in Trek Tech or Fan Fiction. Some people think the US military reverse engineered this technology from crashed UAPs/UFOs decades ago, but if that were true, surely they wouldn't still be spending billions, nay trillions, of dollars on developing and deploying the old stuff. We haven't even discussed Trek's inertial dampening, but I suspect that's a lot more tricky as atomic structure is crucially dependent on the inertial mass of the electron to which atomic radius is inversely proportional. Again, it's Trek Tech.

Let's go with a Hypothetical, assume that the US Government did get some tech from the UAP's/UFO's that crashed ages ago.
We still wouldn't have the scientific understanding or technical understanding on how to reverse engineer most of that tech.

Much less make a computer that can run such a craft / engine.

It's be like us bringing SmartPhones to Cavemen, we're so behind on the technological / scientific curve, we have no hope yet of understanding how it works yet.

One day, we might, but that day isn't today.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Without any reliable data, it's hard to form an opinion one way or another.

ETA: Re original poster's requests for speculation on how the technology would be exploited, I guess it depends on whether it'll always be in the realms of only exploitable by nation states and tech billionaires/trillionaires or whether some economy of scale could ever kick in to make it affordable to the ordinary Joe. My suspicion is that it'll never be available to the average person as it would make them free and literally unbound. The cosmos would be their oyster. Can't be having the wage slaves doing that, can we now - competing with the rich boys for the exploitable resources and wealth. So the future is unlikely to be like No Man's Sky or Elite Dangerous or whatever, with Han Solo privateers or Hober Mallow traders cruising the Galaxy. Perhaps I'm wrong and the warp tech will trickle down. Better hope we don't meet any aliens, in that case. I would expect that religious groups might want to carve out their own colony worlds free from the taint of other-believers - much like the Mormons in The Expanse building their space ark/generation ship, The Nauvoo, except warp drive might get them to the promised land much faster.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

ETA: Re original poster's requests for speculation on how the technology would be exploited, I guess it depends on whether it'll always be in the realms of only exploitable by nation states and tech billionaires/trillionaires or whether some economy of scale could ever kick in to make it affordable to the ordinary Joe. My suspicion is that it'll never be available to the average person as it would make them free and literally unbound. The cosmos would be their oyster. Can't be having the wage slaves doing that, can we now - competing with the rich boys for the exploitable resources and wealth. So the future is unlikely to be like No Man's Sky or Elite Dangerous or whatever, with Han Solo privateers or Hober Mallow traders cruising the Galaxy. Perhaps I'm wrong and the warp tech will trickle down. Better hope we don't meet any aliens, in that case. I would expect that religious groups might want to carve out their own colony worlds free from the taint of other-believers - much like the Mormons in The Expanse building their space ark/generation ship, The Nauvoo, except warp drive might get them to the promised land much faster.

If we can have more Independent Captains like "Cristobal Rios"
Have guys like "Booker Cleveland" running his own operation.

We'd have a more interesting Universe to explore.

Remember, Travis MayWeather's family had their own early Warp Cargo Ships running routes.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Being somewhat cynical, pessimistic and misanthropic, I don't expect the future to be utopian like Star Trek or Banks' Culture. I expect it to be dystopian like 1984 or even Dune in its social construction as long as individual humans are viewed as a resource to be exploited. Perhaps AGI will free us; perhaps it will enslave or replace us. My preference would be similar to The Cyberiad. At least, it would be amusing and entertaining, although with precious few humans to witness it.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Correct me if wrong, but as I remember it, the warp bubble expands space behind the ship, and contracts/crunches space ahead, causing a push/drag like affect, but in reality the ship is not moving (at least when ahead), so if the warp bubble goes away, the ship space is regaining it's normalcy and there is no inertia -- it just looks that way for the viewers. Maybe some leftover momentum from thrusts change the direction while in warp.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Correct me if wrong, but as I remember it, the warp bubble expands space behind the ship, and contracts/crunches space ahead, causing a push/drag like affect, but in reality the ship is not moving (at least when ahead), so if the warp bubble goes away, the ship space is regaining it's normalcy and there is no inertia -- it just looks that way for the viewers. Maybe some leftover momentum from thrusts change the direction while in warp.

There has been theoretical debate over whether such a warp bubble can be used to move a vessel, but I don't know if the matter was ever settled. If it did work as intended, I imagine it would look to outside observers as you describe, Such a drive would likely appear to break both momentum conservation and energy conservation.

 

[publiusr]

I’d be happy to just have an ansible.
Seems like that would be easier.

All probes R/C telepresence.

 

[Will The Serious]

You guys are getting hung-up on the feasibility of FTL technology when the thread is about what is next IF FTL could be achieved. @Asbo Zaprudder gave a nice preliminary answer. However, despite the likely efforts to weaponize Warp or other FTL technology, I feel the next step would involve immediate research into space mining and other resource gathering technology. Given the parameters at the beginning of the thread, FTL theory and drive design made public such that it couldn't be suppressed, that means the material resources to build these drives would also have to be accessible to a non-governmental agency. The technology to build a nuclear weapon is one thing, obtaining the materials to actually build a weapon or even a power plant is not so accessible. But, in this scenario...

what would happen 'in the real world' in this case.

1. Weaponize it. That means government and/or terrorist or one in the same.
Still, the technology is out there and there will be those positioned to exploit that tech for something other than as a military asset.

2. Scientific exploration (the starship Enterprise (only much smaller) heads out to verify the latest astrophysics theories or to debunk them. Maybe the images we are seeing from the Alpha Centari system are not what we interpret from five light years away. Is Proxima B habitable? Do we have the technologies to terraform it for our needs? Can we gain weapons grade ore more cheaply and abundantly?

3. I also suspect the first contact scenario from ST would not be to outside the realms of possibilities. Assuming FTL drive technology would be visible light years away, and understandable to another intelligent species who has also developed such technology, first contact would then become much more inevitable.

4. Then there's the tourist angle. Corporations would pop up to give celebrities a quick jaunt around the solar system, before they start building that luxury resort on the surface of Titan or Europa, etc.

-Will