Starfleet Fighters
- Thread starter Dingo
- Start date
No canon evidence of what the fighters do when they are not flying through space all on their own.
But there's a rather prominent fold line in the wings, probably allowing the wingtips to turn up at least enough to let the fighter to land flat on its belly. Such wing-folding would allow the craft to operate from aboard just about any starship, including from the supposed bow doors of the Akira class (the three blue-glowing squares in the bow notch). That is, if we judge the size of the craft by assuming that the cockpit is the size of the TNG shuttlepod that is the actual prop used for portraying said.
It's just that we see several scenes of big fleets of starships that are just about to go to warp, and yet these fighters are merrily buzzing between the big ships, as if they intended to go to warp all on their own. Which is odd as such, because surely a fleet would wish to warp as fast as possible, and the fighters aren't likely to be very fast (in Trek, just as in the age of sail, size is speed). Then again, the fleets agree to have some ancient Mirandas and whatnot tag along, so fleet speed clearly isn't an overriding tactical concern...
Timo Saloniemi
But there's a rather prominent fold line in the wings, probably allowing the wingtips to turn up at least enough to let the fighter to land flat on its belly. Such wing-folding would allow the craft to operate from aboard just about any starship, including from the supposed bow doors of the Akira class (the three blue-glowing squares in the bow notch). That is, if we judge the size of the craft by assuming that the cockpit is the size of the TNG shuttlepod that is the actual prop used for portraying said.
It's just that we see several scenes of big fleets of starships that are just about to go to warp, and yet these fighters are merrily buzzing between the big ships, as if they intended to go to warp all on their own. Which is odd as such, because surely a fleet would wish to warp as fast as possible, and the fighters aren't likely to be very fast (in Trek, just as in the age of sail, size is speed). Then again, the fleets agree to have some ancient Mirandas and whatnot tag along, so fleet speed clearly isn't an overriding tactical concern...
Timo Saloniemi
I'm not sure if it's in any Berman-era canon sources, but I recall fan-published tech stuff from the 80's and early 90's having "Killer Bee" assault pods assigned to "Avanger Class" (what canon named "Miranda Class" in 1993) frigates. And various classes of fighter-carrier ships.
Of course, Discovery's season 2 finale had the USS Enterprise equipped with dozens of "loaned out" experimental fighters, thanks to Commander Una.
That's three different approaches to what makes a fighter. The "attack fighters" of DS9 are independent mini-starships with their own warp engines that make them at least a tad faster than the runabouts (since they escape said in "Maquis pt II"). The Killer Bees are separate warp engine and weapons modules that can be piloted when one bolts a workbee cabin onto them (and in modern terms they'd no doubt be "optionally piloted", since it's likely that a computer could run the engine/weapons pack all on its own and a detachable crew cabin makes no sense unless it really is optional). And the craft seen in DIS are unlikely to have warp engines, and probably don't have a space for a pilot, either (since, while there are curious domes on the craft, we never got a closeup of a pilot inside, whilst there was a great effort to show the pilots inside the larger shuttlecraft via intensive, expensive VFX).
A warp-incapable fighter obviously couldn't make do without a carrier. And possibly is worthless in the end, as none are seen in action outside that single DIS engagement where these things were supposed to be new and in testing phase or whatever when Number One stole them for her own use: the "field test" may have decisively disproved the value of the concept.
A piloted warp fighter may be of some worth, given how they exist in DS9. The other small Maquis craft may be earlier models of Starfleet fightercraft, and the Academy training craft may be related, i.e. not necessarily retired fighters but similar enough to be handy in training fighter pilots rather than starship pilots or shuttlecraft pilots. But what worth? Those fighters never did squat against starships, and the Cardassians pretending otherwise was but a ruse - so anti-shipping is out. Fighter vs. fighter makes little sense if and when the enemy doesn't have fighters. But DS9 calls these "attack" fighters, and in current USAF parlance, "attack" specifically means surface attack. Which is what the Maquis intend to use these craft for in their titular episode, FWIW. Surface targets to be attacked might in general lie in distant star systems, rather than within your own, which might make ship-sized carriers or at least tenders attractive...
Or then the attack craft are part of surface defenses and rarely applicable for offense, and essentially serve as flying tanks, operating from ground bases more often than from aboard starships. It's a bit odd that they would be so often seen in the Dominion War fleet formations then, though.
Timo Saloniemi
A warp-incapable fighter obviously couldn't make do without a carrier. And possibly is worthless in the end, as none are seen in action outside that single DIS engagement where these things were supposed to be new and in testing phase or whatever when Number One stole them for her own use: the "field test" may have decisively disproved the value of the concept.
A piloted warp fighter may be of some worth, given how they exist in DS9. The other small Maquis craft may be earlier models of Starfleet fightercraft, and the Academy training craft may be related, i.e. not necessarily retired fighters but similar enough to be handy in training fighter pilots rather than starship pilots or shuttlecraft pilots. But what worth? Those fighters never did squat against starships, and the Cardassians pretending otherwise was but a ruse - so anti-shipping is out. Fighter vs. fighter makes little sense if and when the enemy doesn't have fighters. But DS9 calls these "attack" fighters, and in current USAF parlance, "attack" specifically means surface attack. Which is what the Maquis intend to use these craft for in their titular episode, FWIW. Surface targets to be attacked might in general lie in distant star systems, rather than within your own, which might make ship-sized carriers or at least tenders attractive...
Or then the attack craft are part of surface defenses and rarely applicable for offense, and essentially serve as flying tanks, operating from ground bases more often than from aboard starships. It's a bit odd that they would be so often seen in the Dominion War fleet formations then, though.
Timo Saloniemi
The US Navy discarded separate designations for torpedo and dive bombers. Since the late 1940s, they were all included in the Attack category. What matters is not the plane, but the ordnance its loaded with, that makes it capable of conducting anti-ship missions. Subsequently, an Attack fighter would be built for engaging the Dominion fleet.
I gather the issue here is that the heroes discuss the fighters as if being fundamentally unsuited for the task when actually sending them out. That is, not only is this a suicide mission, it's performed for purposes of provocation only, without any hope of scoring factual damage.
This would be a good analogy for using ground attack aircraft in an anti-ship role, or carrierborne bombers in general but armed with HE ordnance only and lacking true shipkiller bombs or torps.
On the latter issue, both the fightercraft and the runabouts are credited with the ability to carry and launch torpedoes, even if only the former are seen doing so against a spacecraft opponent, in "Maquis pt II". But those torps are sorry little firecrackers that fail to do meaningful damage to a mere runabout. If the fighters in "Sacrifice of Angels" are firing the same type of torp, they could just as well be throwing leaflets at the Cardassians, to the very same intended and achieved effect.
Yet Sisko has access to these fighters, in remarkable numbers. Are they "funnies" in D-Day style, special hardware built for this special purpose and useless otherwise? Probably not, since them being in stock seems like a prerequisite for the Maquis stealing some. Are they the result of Sisko desperately rummaging through the farthermost shelves of what is available to him for this attack, even more unsuited to the intended use than the antiquated Mirandas he gets to play with? Yet every fleet we see features them, and the Mirandas. Then again, every sortie promoted by Sisko is a sideshow in the war, something he has to fight tooth and nail to get the resources for: Bajor really would see little action in the war if not for the wormhole, and only Sisko believes the blockaded and useless thing might soon become a threat again. Likewise, the opportunity to move against Chin'toka or Cardassia Prime arises suddenly, due to surprise developments - Starfleet's finest might be engaged elsewhere at those times, in maneuvers carefully planned on Starfleet initiative. Or, at Cardassa Prime, merely joining the fray that largely consists of the second-rate hardware allocated to the 9th Fleet on that usually quiet backwater of a battlefront.
We might also argue that in most of the battles we see after "Sacrifice", Starfleet is on a roll and intends to conquer/liberate planets - so dedicated planetary assault hardware has every excuse of tagging along, even if it serves little role in space combat. Say, the Steamrunner class is basically a Galaxy class shuttlebay with Galaxy class engines bolted on, but with little else. A potential carrier? This particular type fares extremely poorly in the fight against the Borg in ST:FC, compared to other types. It's never seen sporting torpedo tubes or firing torps, either. Perhaps these were being amassed at Earth for fighting the Dominion when the Borg suddenly barged in?
Other ship types seen appear more "balanced", and if there existed a ship that's even more carrierlike than the Steamrunner, we would probably have seen it already in the DS9 fleets featuring the fighters.
Timo Saloniemi
This would be a good analogy for using ground attack aircraft in an anti-ship role, or carrierborne bombers in general but armed with HE ordnance only and lacking true shipkiller bombs or torps.
On the latter issue, both the fightercraft and the runabouts are credited with the ability to carry and launch torpedoes, even if only the former are seen doing so against a spacecraft opponent, in "Maquis pt II". But those torps are sorry little firecrackers that fail to do meaningful damage to a mere runabout. If the fighters in "Sacrifice of Angels" are firing the same type of torp, they could just as well be throwing leaflets at the Cardassians, to the very same intended and achieved effect.
Yet Sisko has access to these fighters, in remarkable numbers. Are they "funnies" in D-Day style, special hardware built for this special purpose and useless otherwise? Probably not, since them being in stock seems like a prerequisite for the Maquis stealing some. Are they the result of Sisko desperately rummaging through the farthermost shelves of what is available to him for this attack, even more unsuited to the intended use than the antiquated Mirandas he gets to play with? Yet every fleet we see features them, and the Mirandas. Then again, every sortie promoted by Sisko is a sideshow in the war, something he has to fight tooth and nail to get the resources for: Bajor really would see little action in the war if not for the wormhole, and only Sisko believes the blockaded and useless thing might soon become a threat again. Likewise, the opportunity to move against Chin'toka or Cardassia Prime arises suddenly, due to surprise developments - Starfleet's finest might be engaged elsewhere at those times, in maneuvers carefully planned on Starfleet initiative. Or, at Cardassa Prime, merely joining the fray that largely consists of the second-rate hardware allocated to the 9th Fleet on that usually quiet backwater of a battlefront.
We might also argue that in most of the battles we see after "Sacrifice", Starfleet is on a roll and intends to conquer/liberate planets - so dedicated planetary assault hardware has every excuse of tagging along, even if it serves little role in space combat. Say, the Steamrunner class is basically a Galaxy class shuttlebay with Galaxy class engines bolted on, but with little else. A potential carrier? This particular type fares extremely poorly in the fight against the Borg in ST:FC, compared to other types. It's never seen sporting torpedo tubes or firing torps, either. Perhaps these were being amassed at Earth for fighting the Dominion when the Borg suddenly barged in?
Other ship types seen appear more "balanced", and if there existed a ship that's even more carrierlike than the Steamrunner, we would probably have seen it already in the DS9 fleets featuring the fighters.
Timo Saloniemi
IIRC, the Avenger concept is mainly described in Ships of the Starfleet (but I'm not quite sure if the name effectively originated with them or the author worked on multiple sources, including SotSF) while the Bee series of support craft mainly comes from Jackill's work. The description of the Akira class in the Designing Starships series (along with its similar entry in the updated Eaglemoss Shipyards book) implies that the design was intended to function much like a carrier, with the notch in the saucer being the launch bays and the small craft reentering through the rear shuttlebays, where they could be protected by the Akira's hull. The Akira also has several side-firing torpedo tubes in this description, two on each side of the saucer.
The shuttlebays of most starships take up a remarkable percentage of internal volume, especially in light of TOS and TNG which had a proper, in-your-face set or miniature from which only one or two auxiliaries ever operated. Since we saw these auxiliaries maneuver with utter precision most of the time, and thus being perfectly capable of operating from a largish clothes closet, the "extra" volume might well have been there for added capacity in times of crisis - i.e. for stacking more of the craft. Just about any ship could be a "carrier" when needed, the Akira not standing out much in that respect.
Basically, all starships would be naval combatants from the latter half of the 20th century, with some space devoted to helicopters, but all of them would be frigates, destroyers or cruisers, not dedicated carriers. It's just that some might be akin to the special helicopter cruisers or destroyers like Vittorio Veneto or Moskva or Haruna. Although with the caveat that the helicopters would be slower and less maneuverable than their motherships... (A better analogy, even if completely fictitious, would be cruiser and destroyers carrying assorted minisubs.)
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, all starships would be naval combatants from the latter half of the 20th century, with some space devoted to helicopters, but all of them would be frigates, destroyers or cruisers, not dedicated carriers. It's just that some might be akin to the special helicopter cruisers or destroyers like Vittorio Veneto or Moskva or Haruna. Although with the caveat that the helicopters would be slower and less maneuverable than their motherships... (A better analogy, even if completely fictitious, would be cruiser and destroyers carrying assorted minisubs.)
Timo Saloniemi
I agree with Timo, most StarShips always seem to have a complement of Shuttles, but no dedicated Fighter Wing.
But the Dominion War was probably the first time in a long time that they introduce a dedicated StarFighter.
There must've been alot of lost institutional knowledge on how to best employ StarFighters since the last time we've seen them in ST: Discovery.
It takes time for a organization to build up tactics / knowledge / technology / logistics / training to best use Star Fighters.
I think the Dominion War was kind of like WW1/WW2 for StarFleet, learning how to Use StarFighters again in a "Trial By Fire" type setup.
But the Dominion War was probably the first time in a long time that they introduce a dedicated StarFighter.
There must've been alot of lost institutional knowledge on how to best employ StarFighters since the last time we've seen them in ST: Discovery.
It takes time for a organization to build up tactics / knowledge / technology / logistics / training to best use Star Fighters.
I think the Dominion War was kind of like WW1/WW2 for StarFleet, learning how to Use StarFighters again in a "Trial By Fire" type setup.
What the Dominion War, for certain out-universe practical reasons, but for no less surprise value in-universe, fails to do is introduce new fighting hardware. There isn't a single starship that would both be new to the Trek universe we observe, and look the part - the kitbashes out of decidedly old components were not seen earlier, but are highly unlikely to have been specifically built for this conflict.
With starships, we could argue that it's way too difficult to get one built and deployed in anything less than three years, and Starfleet would be late to even start. With smaller craft, though... the attack fighters did appear in just about every battlefield throughout the war, and Starfleet might have done well to implement upgrades. Was that possible within the spaceframe, or were there again reasons unknown to us why we failed to see the Valkyries or whatnot even though they were in fact developed and deployed?
Timo Saloniemi
With starships, we could argue that it's way too difficult to get one built and deployed in anything less than three years, and Starfleet would be late to even start. With smaller craft, though... the attack fighters did appear in just about every battlefield throughout the war, and Starfleet might have done well to implement upgrades. Was that possible within the spaceframe, or were there again reasons unknown to us why we failed to see the Valkyries or whatnot even though they were in fact developed and deployed?
Timo Saloniemi
Similar threads
