Starbase 47/Vanguard-Taurus Reach Location

[RedForman]

Apologies if this has already been brought up - did a search and didn't want to resuscitate any old threads. I've been rereading the Vanguard series and one thing that's always struck me is the location of the station & the taurus reach relative to the Klingons, and Tholians.

This is the only concrete proof I've found of where the station/region is located
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kR7ClvUr-...ence+Library+History+ofthe+Federation+map.JPG

Now referring back to this source right here (link), assuming the location of Pacifica is correct/the same, then that would put the station right about where 'MS-8' is more or less. The issue I have with this then is even if this was unclaimed territory during the TOS years, it's still quite a ways from the Tholian and Klingon borders. Then again, maybe I'm just having trouble because these are 2D maps. Anyone else have any thoughts that might set me straight?

 

[Christopher]

That territory's actually closer to Klingon and Tholian space than it was to Federation territory at the time. And the Taurus Reach is a big place. Vanguard was situated roughly in the middle of it, comfortably away from hostile territories, but the overall Reach pretty much filled the gap between Klingon and Tholian space. That map looks like a pretty good representation of the Taurus Reach. (Although the Delta Triangle seems too far away from Earth, given how long ago the Bonaventure was lost. NX-01 was supposed to be the first Earth ship to get more than 90 light years from Sol.)

 

[RedForman]

Thanks - never heard the Reach described as being that expansive before (or perhaps I just missed/glossed over it in my read-through), but it definitely makes more sense now

 

[Timo]

This is basically a case of conflict between the writers choosing recognizable star names and giving if not absolute location then at least absolute direction for a key location - and preceding writers, artists and other auteurs having created a strong impression of where the Klingons are, slightly incompatible with where Taurus in reality lies.

Taurus is great for "frontier" stories, as it lies towards the rim of the galactic disk, intuitively "outward" and "far away". It's also a constellation that hasn't been "domesticated" in previous Trek writing. But the rimward direction has traditionally been kept "open" in Trek cartography for exciting adventures (the older RPGs didn't do that yet, but Star Maps and the modern Star Charts/Stellar Cartography/Star Trek Online line of interpretations stick to it), and the Klingons were shoved to the side in Andy Probert's onscreen map on Starfleet Command wall in TNG "Conspiracy" already.

Then again, Klingons are always hot and bothered about "disputed" space ("No, it's not disputed - it's clearly ours!"); in onscreen canon, there's that Betreka Nebula where they fought the Cardassians for decades, without any sort of a permanent border against Cardassia being the result. The writing in VAN is consistent with Klingon hubris: they are nearby, and they make claims, but they aren't exactly locals.

As for Tholians, little is established about them as such - their positioning in the Star Charts/Stellar Cartography/STO continuum is pure creative input of the original authors, although it quickly caught on in the novels. I do wonder if Ward, Dilmore and the rest chose the Tholians as adversaries after having had a look at the map, or just chose the players first and then put the action where it fit? Their take on the Tholians is both innovative and definitive, but in theory the VAN books might have featured an all-new species as the victimized local power...

In any case, maps of the sort you linked to do not assume that there would be Klingon space just "above" or "beneath" the blue that surrounds SB47 (naturally, there was no blue there back in the days of VAN!). There's instead a healthy degree of buffer between the Klingons and the other players, one of the credos behind the maps having been that if an actual shared border between two Trek species is not explicated to exist or at least can be interpreted not to exist, then the maps are better off without such a border.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RedForman]

Indeed - that's a most logical interpretation. I guess the problem then is that there's been no clear definition over time of where exactly the 'frontier' is/Starfleet's borders are...........(though as you said, I do recognize the value of leaving them ambiguous for the sake of storytelling)

 

[David Mack]

Another issue here is that the new version of Star Charts has revised the extent of certain powers' territories, and altered the distances between others. But as for where they placed Vanguard on their map, they put it exactly where I showed them it was in a graphic I produced at their request. That position, if compared against the original edition of Star Charts, seems much more "frontier" than it does in this version.

 

[Tuskin38]

I was surprised when I saw they had Vanguard on the map.

 

[Timo]

Odds and ends:

(Although the Delta Triangle seems too far away from Earth, given how long ago the Bonaventure was lost. NX-01 was supposed to be the first Earth ship to get more than 90 light years from Sol.)

Quite possibly she was. The Bonaventure is credited with early warp drive, but her disappearance is not established as having been an early achievement. Perhaps Starfleet wasn't desperate enough to send its first-ever warp engine experiment to a deep space mission until during, or well after, the Romulan War?

But as for where they placed Vanguard on their map, they put it exactly where I showed them it was in a graphic I produced at their request.

Cool to have something so definitive on a map so vague! Were any other VAN locations added? I don't have the set, but in online glimpses, Tholian space still seems as devoid of anything interesting as it was in the Star Charts...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Idran]

Quite possibly she was. The Bonaventure is credited with early warp drive, but her disappearance is not established as having been an early achievement.

Well, not explicitly, but Scotty did say it happened on the ship's third voyage. It'd be a strange way for him to describe it if the third voyage was decades after the first without commenting on that. Not inconsistent, but just a weird way to have chosen to put it, since phrasing it that way without further comment certainly implies to people that don't know the ship (which it seemed like was everyone but Scotty) that it was an early flight.

 

[Jedi Marso]

When looked at in three dimensions, I always perceived the Taurus Reach to be not just between the UFP, Klingons, and Tholians, but also located 'upward' towards the upper edge of the galactic disk, towards Delta Vega and the energy barrier. In the opening of Vanguard, the Enterprise is depicted as returning from Delta Vega and they are surprised to find SB47 up and operating well ahead of schedule.

 

[Idran]

When looked at in three dimensions, I always perceived the Taurus Reach to be not just between the UFP, Klingons, and Tholians, but also located 'upward' towards the upper edge of the galactic disk, towards Delta Vega and the energy barrier. In the opening of Vanguard, the Enterprise is depicted as returning from Delta Vega and they are surprised to find SB47 up and operating well ahead of schedule.

It's probably somewhat off the galactic plane because of that, yeah, but keep in mind that the Taurus Reach is called that because it's in the general direction of the constellation Taurus as seen from Earth, and that constellation straddles the galactic plane. We know specifically that Gamma Tauri is in the Taurus Reach too from Vanguard, and while I don't have my specific coordinate notes offhand (I can check specifics once I get home), from what I remember I don't believe its "height" relative to the galactic plane is more than a hundred light years different than that of Sol.

 

[Timo]

I guess we could assume that even Starfleet's mighty starships generally travel along well-charted "spacelanes" rather than direct beelines between A and B. After all, the high performance of warp drive allows for such. It would only be in special emergencies that beelines would be taken, and this would take Pike near Talos in "The Cage" or Kirk near Murasaki in "The Galileo Seven" - these would not be distant locations as such, they would simply be off the beaten path and therefore unexplored or poorly explored.

Kirk returning from Delta Vega need not be an emergency as such. And even if it were, getting back to the beaten path might take priority over getting back to Earth or even to the nearest starbase - after all, Kirk can't afford any more surprises, so braving further wilderness in order to get to safety would be a poor choice. So, perhaps "down" from Delta Vega, then corewards towards the nearest help but now along a properly charted route?

It would be nice to know why Starfleet chose that exact spot for Kirk's attempt to brave the Barrier. "Randomly" won't cut it, because something drove the Valiant to that spot, too. "Absolute closest to Earth" might work, but would that magnetic storm have been kind enough to deliver the old ship to the very best spot, return trip wise? "Advantageous subspace conditions" might work, especially if those directly related to the behavior of the storm as well. Or perhaps it's a case of the Barrier being there and only there? It does look like a very local phenomenon, and also something easily avoided if one so wanted. Perhaps Starfleet wanted to study the Barrier specifically, while other ships were already studying the far reaches and the outside of the galaxy in directions where the Barrier was no hindrance?

Well, not explicitly, but Scotty did say it happened on the ship's third voyage. It'd be a strange way for him to describe it if the third voyage was decades after the first without commenting on that. Not inconsistent, but just a weird way to have chosen to put it, since phrasing it that way without further comment certainly implies to people that don't know the ship (which it seemed like was everyone but Scotty) that it was an early flight.

...Of course, if that were an early and primitive warp drive, the first two voyages of deep exploration might each have taken two or three decades! Without beating the 90 ly record yet, even.

But sorting out the TAS take on the Bonaventure might be more trouble than worth. Perhaps Scotty just knows sod all about early starships, but everybody trusts the guy so much that they blindly believe in his six impossible things about the Bonaventure or, say, the Franklin before breakfast?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Idran]

Or perhaps it's a case of the Barrier being there and only there? It does look like a very local phenomenon, and also something easily avoided if one so wanted. Perhaps Starfleet wanted to study the Barrier specifically, while other ships were already studying the far reaches and the outside of the galaxy in directions where the Barrier was no hindrance?

Setting aside the Q-Continuum trilogy and Destiny for a moment, and also ignoring that Taurus and Andromeda have a pretty fair separation from one another: And it just so happened that the Kelvans chose to enter the galaxy by that exact path as well rather than going around it, and whatever weird engine thing Marvick did just happened to also go through that path?

 

[publiusr]

That map looks like a pretty good representation of the Taurus Reach. (Although the Delta Triangle seems too far away from Earth, given how long ago the Bonaventure was lost. NX-01 was supposed to be the first Earth ship to get more than 90 light years from Sol.)

Having Delta Triangle closer to Earth also would make for an explanation of why Earth was left alone for so long--explaining Fermi.

 

[publiusr]

I guess we could assume that even Starfleet's mighty starships generally travel along well-charted "spacelanes" rather than direct beelines between A and B.

Timo Saloniemi

I'd say the direct line from star to star would be the spacelanes. I was thinking about the proposed mission to the solar foci--and that the gravity lens allows not a focal point but a focal line. A spacelane may simple be in between the stars--with gravity wells before and behind to allow warp factors to increase--but only along that focal line.

 

[Idran]

Having Delta Triangle closer to Earth also would make for an explanation of why Earth was left alone for so long--explaining Fermi.

Earth wasn't really left alone for so long in the Trek universe, though; just from what I can remember offhand and just sticking to on-screen stuff, we had Apollo's people, the Sahndarans, the Preservers, the Skagarans, and at least one El-Aurian. It seemed to settle down by the early 20th century, but in canon that works out as about the point when the Vulcans had control of most of local space to some degree anyway.

 

[Jinn]

Earth wasn't really left alone for so long in the Trek universe, though; just from what I can remember offhand and just sticking to on-screen stuff, we had Apollo's people, the Sahndarans, the Preservers, the Skagarans, and at least one El-Aurian. It seemed to settle down by the early 20th century, but in canon that works out as about the point when the Vulcans had control of most of local space to some degree anyway.

And Spock and Kira from the future.
And all the aliens from From History's Shadow and Elusive Salvation.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Earth wasn't really left alone for so long in the Trek universe, though; just from what I can remember offhand and just sticking to on-screen stuff, we had Apollo's people, the Sahndarans, the Preservers, the Skagarans, and at least one El-Aurian.

And the Sky Spirits. And the Briori. And Redjac. And Kukulkan. And the Megans.

Earth was obviously one of the top tourist destinations for aliens prior to--*ahem*--"first contact"!

 

[Mage]

Which Star Charts are you talking about? The older book, or the newer maps?

 

[Enterprise1701]

I'd say the direct line from star to star would be the spacelanes. I was thinking about the proposed mission to the solar foci--and that the gravity lens allows not a focal point but a focal line. A spacelane may simple be in between the stars--with gravity wells before and behind to allow warp factors to increase--but only along that focal line.

Not necessarily. Subspace geodesics don't always allow for the fastest travel between two systems to be a straight line. Like a mountain range or a valley impeding a straight route between two cities.