Spider-Man: Webshooters? Mechanical/Organic or Both?

[Technobuilder]

So I got to thinking recently that with all the changes in the Spider-Man books and retcons, what-have-you... the issue of his webshooters was never really made clear to me, from a fan perspective.

Personally, I myself enjoyed the idea of the Organic Webshooters.

Peter gets bit by a radioactive spider and develops the ability to cling to walls, a pre-cognitive sense, and proportionate strength, but NOT the ability to produce webbing?

The idea that Peter is so intelligent that he was able to produce not only the formula for a super-tensile webbing but a compact delivery system as well... while cool... always seemed a bit convenient to me though.

Peter's a a very smart guy though, so maybe I'm wrong and it's just part of setting the stage of a character created in a bygone era.


Of course, since the events of the Mephisto deal, I haven't been following the story as closely as I once did, and I'm no longer sure what the deal is with his "Totemic" Abilities for lack of a better term.

Did they just get retconned away? Is his organic webbing gone completely now?


My take on how it should have gone...

Ever since the change, I thought there was an easy way to explain having both types of shooters.

1. Peter has organic spinnerets which develop eventually as part of his transformation and they produce a super strong, high tensile, organic substance which allows him to shoot webs.

2. Peter, uses his ingenuity to create a diversified delivery system for his new found ability dubbing it a "webshooter"
which allows him to change and modify the flow of his webbing. ala Impact web blasts, etc. etc.

3. Peter tests the organic compound and comes up with a synthetic version to be used in emergencies or as back up in case his body can't produce more webbing.



Anyways, I thought I'd make a poll and ask what people here preferred their Spider-Man to have in terms of webshooters?


.

 

[Admiral2]

Mechanical webshooters.

There was nothing wrong with them when they were first created.

There won't be anything wrong with them if we go back to them.

It doesn't matter if real life science can't figure out how to do what Peter Parker did in creating them. He's a comic book character!

 

[ManOnTheWave]

It may be outmoded and completely unrealistic, but I liked a) that Peter Parker was smart enough to invent mechanical web spinners and develop a formula for a liquid that could be spun into a solid which was stronger than steel cable (that's just fun to me), and b) he is completely normal physically. His powers are completely inexplicable. Sure over the years there have been various explanations for why he can stick to walls and lift/press ten tons, and don't forget some sort of weird low level psychic ability, but the explanations change with the writers and contradict one another. He exudes a sticky goo that makes him stick to walls but not his clothes, other people or objects. No, he has tiny spikes coming out of his skin. No, it's a subconsciously controlled electromagnetic field. No, it's molecular bonding. No, it's mysticism. No, it's just a working theory always proven wrong.

I dislike organic web-shooters because they alter the character of his body. If he has organic web shooters, then he has ducts in his wrists, and an organ in his body making this stuff, and what the hell else is going on inside him? It ventures towards medical horror, Kafka-esque transformations, and a segue into David Cronenberg's head, and that's territory I don't care for in Spidey.

My $.02. (That and five buck won't buy you a cup of coffee.)

 

[The Evil Dead]

I like mechanical webshooters because it reinforces Peter's intelligence... I like in the Ultimate universe that it's based upon work that Peter's father started and Peter finished.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I like organic webshooters. Seems more natural to me.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I disagree with the fan notion that having mechanical webshooters somehow reinforces Peter's intelligence. We all know how smart Peter is. There are plenty of examples to demonstrate this throughout the comics, in fact it was acknowledged how smart he is when Tony made him his protege before Civil War messed all of that up. I grew up with the mechanical webshooters and loved them but I fail to see how this reinforces Peter's intelligence when they're simply just one facet of it. I liked the movie's use of organic webshooters. I have no problem with either of them. I think my perferance would be mechanical but not because it shows how smart Peter is, they just look damn cool.

 

[Christopher]

Organic webshooters don't make much sense if they're coming out of his wrists. By what possible anatomical analogy would they end up there of all places? Also, what about the nutrients and water he'd be depleting from his body every time he fired them?

Not to mention the pressure issue. Spiders don't shoot their webbing through the air; they exude it slowly, anchor it in place, then climb or descend as they spin out a strand. Now, strictly speaking, the idea of firing a gossamer-light thread of webbing hundreds of feet through the air with perfect aim is nonsense, because air resistance would render it unfeasible. But the one thing that makes it marginally credible is that Peter's web cartridges are pressurized, with the compressed fluid shooting out and hardening in air like silly string. It's not entirely implausible that something fired out under considerable pressure could travel that kind of distance. But it's hard to believe that some sort of organs inside his wrists could build up that level of internal pressure. It's far more plausible as a mechanical device.

Besides, the webspinners, cartridges, and all that are such an integral and well-developed part of Spidey's equipment. They're interesting to do stuff with. There are lots of things Spidey can do with them, like using the cartridges in unconventional ways (e.g. tossing them in a fire to create a diversion when they explode), or tweaking the webbing formula to develop special variants for dealing with certain foes. Taking Spidey's webspinners away is like taking Batman's utility belt away.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I agree that there is far more story potential for mechanical web shooters than there is for organic which is possibly why they retconned it so fast.

 

[Greg Cox]

Forget continuity. The movie got it right. Organic webshooters are simpler and make more sense. Why do we need two explanations for Spidey's abiities when one will suffice? He got bitten by a radioactive spider. Now he does whatever a spider can--like climbing walls and spinning webs. Nice, clean, simple. Works for me.

No offense, Christopher, but you're overthinking this. You're actually worried about the hard science of how much pressure and body fluid would be required? Since when have comic book super-powers been subject to that kind of rigorous scientific scrutiny?

If Cyclops and Superman can shoot energy beams from their eyes, and every third superhero can defy gravity just by jumping in the air, do we really need to explain where Spider-Man's webs come from?

He's Spider-Man. Spiders spin webs. It's as simple as that.

 

[FPAlpha]

Organic webshooters don't make much sense if they're coming out of his wrists. By what possible anatomical analogy would they end up there of all places? Also, what about the nutrients and water he'd be depleting from his body every time he fired them?

Not to mention the pressure issue. Spiders don't shoot their webbing through the air; they exude it slowly, anchor it in place, then climb or descend as they spin out a strand. Now, strictly speaking, the idea of firing a gossamer-light thread of webbing hundreds of feet through the air with perfect aim is nonsense, because air resistance would render it unfeasible. But the one thing that makes it marginally credible is that Peter's web cartridges are pressurized, with the compressed fluid shooting out and hardening in air like silly string. It's not entirely implausible that something fired out under considerable pressure could travel that kind of distance. But it's hard to believe that some sort of organs inside his wrists could build up that level of internal pressure. It's far more plausible as a mechanical device.

Besides, the webspinners, cartridges, and all that are such an integral and well-developed part of Spidey's equipment. They're interesting to do stuff with. There are lots of things Spidey can do with them, like using the cartridges in unconventional ways (e.g. tossing them in a fire to create a diversion when they explode), or tweaking the webbing formula to develop special variants for dealing with certain foes. Taking Spidey's webspinners away is like taking Batman's utility belt away.

And all this is developed by a kid in high school with very limited ressources whereas multinational corporations with multibillion dollar research departments can't?

See.. realism works both ways.

I prefer a little bit of "realism" (if that concept even applies to superhero comics) and organic webshooters make far more sense in general.. they have their own logical problems too but why stop there when you have given him so many other cool powers.

 

[RonSexton]

Too bad He doesnt need both. Organic for regular swinging lines. And Mechanical for specialized webs... huh? (I'm high... )

 

[Silvercrest]

Ever since the change, I thought there was an easy way to explain having both types of shooters.

1. Peter has organic spinnerets which develop eventually as part of his transformation and they produce a super strong, high tensile, organic substance which allows him to shoot webs.

2. Peter, uses his ingenuity to create a diversified delivery system for his new found ability dubbing it a "webshooter"
which allows him to change and modify the flow of his webbing. ala Impact web blasts, etc. etc.

3. Peter tests the organic compound and comes up with a synthetic version to be used in emergencies or as back up in case his body can't produce more webbing.

Organic webshooters don't make much sense if they're coming out of his wrists. By what possible anatomical analogy would they end up there of all places? Also, what about the nutrients and water he'd be depleting from his body every time he fired them?

Not to mention the pressure issue. Spiders don't shoot their webbing through the air; they exude it slowly, anchor it in place, then climb or descend as they spin out a strand. Now, strictly speaking, the idea of firing a gossamer-light thread of webbing hundreds of feet through the air with perfect aim is nonsense, because air resistance would render it unfeasible. But the one thing that makes it marginally credible is that Peter's web cartridges are pressurized, with the compressed fluid shooting out and hardening in air like silly string. It's not entirely implausible that something fired out under considerable pressure could travel that kind of distance. But it's hard to believe that some sort of organs inside his wrists could build up that level of internal pressure. It's far more plausible as a mechanical device.

Try this: His web organs aren't in his wrists. They're in the, err, usual place for a spider. The web-shooters route the fluid to his wrists via tubing inside the costume. I'm sure he'd prefer to aim with his hands. Aiming a webline with your butt isn't easy no matter what your abilities are. (Spider-sense?)

The web-shooters also pressurize the fluid so he can fire it long distances, something he can't normally do very well.


Also, per Technobuilder's point #3, perhaps he can't produce very much webbing on his own, or it dehydrates him to do so. So he duplicates the stuff in a lab and puts it in cartridges for when he needs backup. This gets around the "Parker figured out how do do something no other chemist can do", because no one else has access to the original substance.

 

[Christopher]

No offense, Christopher, but you're overthinking this. You're actually worried about the hard science of how much pressure and body fluid would be required? Since when have comic book super-powers been subject to that kind of rigorous scientific scrutiny?

Since always. Stan Lee came up with some very clever and detailed explanations of how Spidey's gadgets worked (such as the really clever idea that his mask "eyes" are essentially mirrored Mylar lenses), and that was a major part of the charm of the comics. He and subsequent writers came up with numerous detailed explanations of how the webshooters worked as well. (I think it was David Michelinie who did a storyline about Peter building new, plastic webshooters with LEDs that lit up when he was low on web fluid. I recall some pretty detailed graphics showing off the new shooters' features.) And other comics writers have done the same, like Chris Claremont acknowledging that Nightcrawler's momentum was conserved when he teleported, and otherwise paying attention to physics in depicting the X-Men's powers.

I mean, come on, Greg, you of all people must know Richard Matheson's rule for fantasy: have one fanciful element and keep everything around it as grounded and realistic as possible to make it convincing. Fantasy is not a license to be lazy about detail and internal logic. You want to approach fantasy concepts with enough verisimilitude to facilitate the audience's willing suspension of disbelief. Heck, that's the foundation of Stan Lee's whole storytelling philosophy -- write about wild and fanciful things, but approach them with an eye toward realism. If Peter Parker has to worry about such realistic concerns as his costume tearing or his job not paying the bills or what-have-you, why shouldn't he have to worry about the occasional law of physics as well, at least when it provides interesting story complications?

 

[Greg Cox]

But that way madness lies. Where does the Hulk's additional body mass come from? How do Mr. Fantastic's internal organs work when they're stretched all out of proportion? How can the Invisible Girl see? Heck, how does Spidey manage to stick to walls through his gloves and boots? And don't get me started on "unstable molecules" or Black Bolt's nuclear vocal cords . . . .

The "one fanciful element" allowed is that getting bitten by a radioactive spider gives you spider-powers. If we accept that a spider-bite can give Pete super-strength, super-agility, the super-adhesive ability to cling to walls, and a psychic "spider-sense" that alerts him to danger, why are we balking at him being able to spin webs, too? Why is that beyond the pale?

Especially in an universe in which people routinely fire energy bolts from their fingertips . . . . .

 

[Admiral2]

I think both sides need to get off the "science" aspect of the argument since it's not really on anybody's side. Chris, "plausible" explanation does not equal "scientifically accurate" explanation, which means "plausible" is only Politically Correct for "acceptable bullshit." Greg, to make organic webs make sense as part of Peter's overall mutation, they'd have to come out of his abdomen from openings just above his groin. Wouldn't that make a great movie-going experience?

I'm going to reiterate my support for mechanical shooters for the following reason: I think it's a cool storytelling device that Peter had to use his brain to come up with a weapon that compensates for the one mutation his spider bite originally didn't give him. Organic shooters may make more sense in a modern telling of the story, but that doesn't automatically make them better. And neither concept would pass the smell test in a medical school or an engineering firm, so get over the science stuff.

 

[coolghoul]

I think I personally like mechanical webshooters. It's fairly clear how they work. Also it wasn't just Peter's genius alone that gave him the ability to manufacture the web fluid and put 'em in webshooters. I seem to vaguely remember that the spider bite influenced him to see the possibilities with adhesive web fluid which wouldn't have happened to a normal intelligent teenager.

Tho' - would Amadeus Cho be able to come up with web shooters? What about Reed Richards? And then of course what about Hank Pym (Doctor Science himself - I am not going to mention the wife-beating... er...)

Tho' I think the repeated "Spidey's run out of web fluid" probably made so many writers/editors/readers upset that they came out with the organic webs to prevent any more of that happening.

I don't like the organic cos frankly it's icky. It's one thing to be able to create webs from common household materials by a manufacturing chemical process. Completely another to have that icky stuff come out of your body...

 

[Holdfast]

I always liked the mechanical webshooters for no other reason than I thought they're cool, in a way organic shooters aren't.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

While on the one hand I can see the appeal of Parker being sort of a hybrid of the Superpowers vs. Gadgets/Intelligence types of superheroes, as a storytelling device organic webshooters are much simpler. It certainly was the right choice for a movie format. In the comics you have all the time in the world to explore Peter developing the webshooters, but in the film it would have just ate up more time; and it already stretched credibility with a lot of fans that Peter created and frequently repaired that nifty, clearly factory-made synthetic suit in his bedroom.

He's already been bitten by a radioactive or genetically modified spider that gave him spider-like superpowers, so why do you need to spend extra time that could be used to develop the character on having him create yet another thing that makes him have even more spider-like abilities? Just say it's all part of the change from the spider bite. Done. His intelligence and scientific prowess was already acknowledged without having him develop something 3M or Dow would pay billions for.

Speaking of which, if you're going to bring plausibility into a fantastical setting, why on Earth wouldn't he sell or personally capitalize on that compound to provide for himself, his aunt, and his girlfriend? The guy is two steps away from living on the street and he's always struggling to balance work, crimefighting, and his personal life. Even if he had no desire to profit from his invention, it could advance materials science in countless ways and improve/save lives, he could give any profits to charity and help tens of thousands of people, or he could arm police with a nonlethal tool to help fight crime in the city.

Unless it's organic and exclusive to him, his motives are frequently contradictory. He seeks personal fame (at first) yet doesn't capitalize on a device that could itself make him world famous. He lives in poverty yet doesn't sell it to make money. He wants to fight crime yet doesn't sell/exploit a device that could give him more free time to fight crime or could give many others the ability to fight crime.

I haven't read the comics in about 25 years, so forgive me if any of this has been addressed there before. I'm mostly going off the films and what little I've read about Spidey online.

 

[Buck Rogers]

Organic Webshooters make sense biologicaly,but the idea of having back up mechanical shooters while he's regenerating,and using the IronSpider Armor to generate the webs.
Any thoughts
Signed
Buck Rogers

 

[Christopher]

But that way madness lies. Where does the Hulk's additional body mass come from? How do Mr. Fantastic's internal organs work when they're stretched all out of proportion? How can the Invisible Girl see? Heck, how does Spidey manage to stick to walls through his gloves and boots? And don't get me started on "unstable molecules" or Black Bolt's nuclear vocal cords . . . .

You're being too absolutist about this. It's not like you have to choose between utter realism or utter thoughtlessness. That's never the way Stan Lee actually wrote comics. He leavened the fanciful stuff with verisimilitude. He used both fantasy and reality to the extent that each served the story. You should know this -- anything can be of value to a story, so it makes no sense to pre-emptively rule anything out. Every single question you asked there could be the seed for a story.

Heck, a large part of what drove my creative process in my novel Spider-Man: Drowned in Thunder was analyzing how the spider-sense worked and how I could use its workings as the basis for a story. In my experience, asking the scientific questions, even about fantasy concepts, promotes storytelling rather than inhibiting it, because it can lead you to new ideas.

If we accept that a spider-bite can give Pete super-strength, super-agility, the super-adhesive ability to cling to walls, and a psychic "spider-sense" that alerts him to danger, why are we balking at him being able to spin webs, too? Why is that beyond the pale?

It's not "beyond the pale," but again, it's not a question of absolutes. Given a choice between the two options, I find the organic webshooter idea less plausible than the mechanical one. Not an absolute distinction, just a relative one. But since we're only comparing two things, that's enough to give me a clear preference.

I think both sides need to get off the "science" aspect of the argument since it's not really on anybody's side. Chris, "plausible" explanation does not equal "scientifically accurate" explanation, which means "plausible" is only Politically Correct for "acceptable bullshit."

You're lecturing me on something I already know. I'm a professional science fiction author. I've been working with the nuances between accuracy and plausibility for decades. One of my favorite things to say about my work is that it's more important to sound convincing to the reader than to actually be strictly accurate -- as the saying goes about sincerity, "if you can fake that, you've got it made."

So your criticism is off the mark, because I was never pushing for absolute realism, just for the kind of verisimilitude that has always been a trademark of Stan Lee's style and Marvel Comics's style, right there along with the wildly fanciful elements. It's never been all or nothing. That's what's so distinctive about Stan Lee's style, the way he blends wild opposites. The characters are believably human with realistic everyday problems, but their dialogue is wildly corny and melodramatic. The stories and concepts are insanely bizarre, but still there's an impressive attention to realistic detail. I'm not advocating anything that hasn't been part of the Marvel style for nearly half a century already. There have always been some impressive nods to physics and other sciences if you keep your eye out for them, right alongside all the fantasy stuff.

And that helps give it verisimilitude. That word doesn't mean absolute accuracy -- it literally means "resemblance to truth." Even if you write about something fanciful, you can give it verisimilitude by acknowledging some of its realistic consequences and ramifications. It's not about trying to make it exactly real, it's about selling it, presenting it convincingly enough that the audience will be willing to buy it. Verisimilitude. The semblance, the appearance, of truth. Address a few of the audience's concerns about the credibility of a thing, and they'll be more forgiving about the impossibilities you can't explain away. This is a basic part of how it's done, how I've done it throughout my writing career, how it was done by the writers who inspired me.

So many arguments on the Internet would be resolved so much more easily if only people could break free of this cultural fiction that every issue has to be reduced to a clash of opposite extremes. That's just not the way the universe works. The truth is almost always found in the middle ground, in the shades of grey. That's what made Marvel so special, the fact that it's long been so firmly rooted in the middle ground between extremes, between goofiness and believability, between fantasy and realism, and has benefitted from the dynamic intermingling of those opposites. There's room in the Marvel Universe for everything, and that includes intelligent science and engineering, when it suits the story.

Tho' I think the repeated "Spidey's run out of web fluid" probably made so many writers/editors/readers upset that they came out with the organic webs to prevent any more of that happening.

Except he'd run out of web fluid much faster with organic webshooters, because he couldn't carry spare cartridges on his belt. Not to mention that he'd end up dehydrated and nutrient-deficient from spewing all that biomass out of his body.

The only reason the comics introduced organic webshooters was to imitate the movies. And they were so ambivalent about the idea that they never even mentioned it after the story where they were introduced. Sure, in the wake of "Disassembled" they never actually showed Peter using his mechanical webshooters, but they never explicitly acknowledged the organic ones either; they just avoided the question.