So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbians?

[IntrepidMan]

Okay, I watched "The Emperor's New Cloak" last night, and I have to say: WTF? The show waaay overdid it with this one. I'm a strong advocate for more visible gay/lesbian/bisexual TV characters, but I am seriously suspicious when a show congratulates itself and expects accolades for putting attractive lesbian/bisexual women on TV. Because that's not being progressive and open-minded at all, that's just being kinky. That's just trying to entice your nerdy teen boy fanbase to tune in. Who doesn't want to see hot chicks make out? If you want to make a statement, if you want to really challenge your viewers, show gay men! Then you can be proud and call yourself provocative and progressive and cutting edge. Putting hot women on is a cop-out. It's an easy way out and it's nothing to be congratulated about. It's the lowest form of entertainment, and I'm disappointed to see it on DS9. Because every time there's a gay moment on the show, its between two hot chicks. First Jadzia and her former lover, and now this episode, where hot mirror Kira becomes gay, hot mirror Ezri is gay--and to top it off, hot Leeta is gay too! Ugh, it just sickens me.

End rant.

 

[Skellington]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I kind of agree with this, except that I didn't find the Jadzia/whatshername relationship to be titillating as such. The whole thing is kind of irksome; firstly in that lesbianism is supposedly the progressive, socially daring option even though relatively few would object to it, and secondly that homosexual relationships of any kind are still too often portrayed as damaging or characteristic of certain kinds of "evil" character. Why Kira's evil alternate would have a different sexual orientation is beyond me.

 

[Sykonee]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Who says they're gay? Maybe Bajoran women are naturally bi in the MU.

Oh god, I'm giving this way too much thought. Yes, two sentences are too much thought for the MU.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Agreed.

It's not very "progressive" to refuse to depict homosexuality in the normal, nice universe, but depict it in the "bad" universe. Who wrote those episodes, Rick Santorum?

 

[USS Intrepid]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I kind of agree with this, except that I didn't find the Jadzia/whatshername relationship to be titillating as such. The whole thing is kind of irksome; firstly in that lesbianism is supposedly the progressive, socially daring option even though relatively few would object to it, and secondly that homosexual relationships of any kind are still too often portrayed as damaging or characteristic of certain kinds of "evil" character. Why Kira's evil alternate would have a different sexual orientation is beyond me.

Totally agree with the point. Although how do we know regular universe Kira isn't bi? Just because we've only ever seen her in straight relationships, doesn't necessarily mean she's straight.

 

[The Dominion]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I kind of agree with this, except that I didn't find the Jadzia/whatshername relationship to be titillating as such. The whole thing is kind of irksome; firstly in that lesbianism is supposedly the progressive, socially daring option even though relatively few would object to it, and secondly that homosexual relationships of any kind are still too often portrayed as damaging or characteristic of certain kinds of "evil" character. Why Kira's evil alternate would have a different sexual orientation is beyond me.

Yep, it's a pretty common thing to make a character lesbian, but then also make her an anti-hero. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychoLesbian

I really think that's the big problem here too. If you have a lesbian character, but then relegate her to being unstable/the villain, then it ends up being counterproductive to any kind of progressive statement and falls into being a caricature. I think the inverse can be equally as bad too, if you make "good" main character hint towards being a lesbian without any actual confirmation, it leans towards feeling like fanservice without actual substance.

Also, what's up with all the spammers I've seen lately quoting people just to post "thank you?"

 

[Sindatur]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Also, what's up with all the spammers I've seen lately quoting people just to post "thank you?"

First time I've ever seen Spambots reply to existing threads (and quoting posts to boot). Normally Spambots just start threads

 

[Skellington]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

The spambots were created by man. They evolved. They rebelled. They look - and feel - human.

 

[The Dominion]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Could they be bots? I assumed they were newbies/morons trying to raise their post count by taking any excuse to make trivial posts. I just can't understand why someone would think it's necessary to quote and say thank you to random posts, and I know I've been seeing several new posters doing it recently.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I am seriously suspicious when a show congratulates itself and expects accolades for putting attractive lesbian/bisexual women on TV.

Um, when did DS9 congratulate itself for the lesbian/bisexual content of its Mirror Universe stories?

"Rejoined" was DS9's controversial same-sex pairing episode, oft-criticized for not being daring enough. That was the one the writers and producers congratulated themselves for doing.

I just can't understand why someone would think it's necessary to quote and say thank you to random posts, and I know I've been seeing several new posters doing it recently.

If you check their history, you'll see that after "thank you~" there was originally a link to an online advertisement graphic.

 

[marksound]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

What I find harder to believe is that people can't seem to remember that these shows were made 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago and try to judge them by current standards. What is socially "acceptable" today is not the same as it was then.

I've seen every series in its first run on tv, and I can tell you that a lot of the stuff in each of them was pretty racy for its time.

 

[Skellington]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I just can't understand why someone would think it's necessary to quote and say thank you to random posts, and I know I've been seeing several new posters doing it recently.

If you check their history, you'll see that after "thank you~" there was originally a link to an online advertisement graphic.

Dammit! My ego has just taken a bashing - and I've personally reported three of these spambot/whatever posts in the last 24 hours. Me not too bright.

 

[The Castellan]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Well, maybe the real universe counterparts are bisexual also. I find it hard to believe that everyone's heterosexual in the prime universe or whatever one wants to call it. Homo/Bisexuality been around since the beginning of time, it's not something that just started in the 1960's, you know.

 

[BennyRussel]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I don't think mirror Kira is a lesbian, I think she is a hyper-sexual narcissist who uses sex to control others and get what she wants.

She uses sex as a tool to gain and maintain power over those around her and likely doesn't feel any intimacy or pleasure related to it.

Since it means nothing to her, it doesn't matter if she is doing it with a male or female.

 

[The Dominion]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Well you know, Odo was a shape shifter. Who knows what Kira did with him in bed.

I don't think mirror Kira is a lesbian, I think she is a hyper-sexual narcissist who uses sex to control others and get what she wants.

She uses sex as a tool to gain and maintain power over those around her and likely doesn't feel any intimacy or pleasure related to it.

Since it means nothing to her, it doesn't matter if she is doing it with a male or female.

Actually, that was what was probably intended in the original MU episode. That's the way Nana Visitor originally interpreted the character as well, but then she said the writers started to get the idea of portraying her supposed attraction to her alt. self as a lesbian/bi orientation, instead of an illustration of narcissism.

 

[BennyRussel]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Could they be bots? I assumed they were newbies/morons trying to raise their post count by taking any excuse to make trivial posts. I just can't understand why someone would think it's necessary to quote and say thank you to random posts, and I know I've been seeing several new posters doing it recently.

They are not necessarily bots. Many of them are working for paid (ripoff) Search Engine Optimization companies. They are paid to put up as many links to a given website as they can. So they use nonsense posts to do it. I know because these people are my competition. I do legitimate SEO for a few clients.

 

[The Dominion]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

Could they be bots? I assumed they were newbies/morons trying to raise their post count by taking any excuse to make trivial posts. I just can't understand why someone would think it's necessary to quote and say thank you to random posts, and I know I've been seeing several new posters doing it recently.

They are not necessarily bots. Many of them are working for paid (ripoff) Search Engine Optimization companies. They are paid to put up as many links to a given website as they can. So they use nonsense posts to do it. I know because these people are my competition. I do legitimate SEO for a few clients.

Good to know there's a counter agent here to fight these guys.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I don't think mirror Kira is a lesbian, I think she is a hyper-sexual narcissist who uses sex to control others and get what she wants.

She uses sex as a tool to gain and maintain power over those around her and likely doesn't feel any intimacy or pleasure related to it.

Since it means nothing to her, it doesn't matter if she is doing it with a male or female.

That's how I thought of it as well. Just like Nicole Wallace from L&O:CI.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I don't think mirror Kira is a lesbian, I think she is a hyper-sexual narcissist who uses sex to control others and get what she wants.
She uses sex as a tool to gain and maintain power over those around her and likely doesn't feel any intimacy or pleasure related to it.
Since it means nothing to her, it doesn't matter if she is doing it with a male or female.

Bingo.

I think MU-Kira's same-sex activity in Emperor was a mis-reading by the writers of her narcissicm in Crossover, which was more about there being another Kira than another woman. But if there needs to be an explanation, then the above is it.

Besides which, it all fits with what's always been depicted about the MU anyway. Sex is used as currency, persuasion, punishment, stress relief, and only in very exceptional circumstances as actual intimacy or romance. Hell, when you've got Garak offering sexual favours to Worf in an attempt to improve his position, you can't put much stock in it one way or another.

Which is why I also have no problem with Ezri and Leeta being gay too. In that kind of culture, I imagine that the lines between what's "acceptable" sexual activity and what's not have long since dissolved. That leaves people open to looking for love wherever they can get it, since they're not culturally conditioned to only look for it in one place. That could explain MU-Leeta being willing to have sex and even enter a relationship with a woman, even if RU-Leeta wouldn't.

As for Ezri, well we already know Trills in general have a more fluid sexuality in the RU, so I imagine it would be even more so in the MU. When you live your life as both a man and a woman multiple times, again, sexual orientation lines tend to lose all meaning. And even though that only applies to the minority of joined Trills, surely that attitude would trickle down to the unjoined majority as well.

So I have no trouble with the idea that, while joined Ezri Dax (RU) is mostly oriented towards men thanks to the influence of the symbiont and the most recent past host and the location where she is (that is, still hanging around Worf and Bashir who she has history with, and note we never saw her express interest in any other man besides them), unjoined Ezri Tigan (MU) could well be genuinely lesbian (she gets married to Leeta in the Lit) but willing to do what's necessary to get by with both men and women (Kira, Brunt) when the situation requires it.

.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: So I'm supposed to believe alt-Kira, Ezri and Leeta are all lesbia

I don't think mirror Kira is a lesbian, I think she is a hyper-sexual narcissist who uses sex to control others and get what she wants.

So is our universe's Garek. Not necessarily hyper-sexual, but after seeing his first few encounters with Bashir I did wonder what he might try.

I actually asked Andrew Robinson about those scenes, and Bashir's reactions to Garek's almost-sexual scrutiny, at a convention. The audience scoffed and guffawed, but Andy agreed with me: that Garek was a being who would do anything, use anyone, to have events unfold the way he wanted them to.