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Sins of the Father Goof

KevinGrem

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Red Shirt
Today I watched this episode and noticed a goof I hadn't realized before. It was during the dinner scene.

When Kurn says "Today I almost killed Commander Riker", Troi laughs, interpreting the comment as a joke. Kurn was of course not joking. Troi, being a telepath, should have been able to read his thoughts and know he wasn't joking.

Just something I noticed that was worth mentioning.
 
Just checked.

I can see what you mean. However, people do react that way when they know the other person was serious about something they were saying.
 
Deanna isn't telepathic, she's just empathic. Is it possible Kurn could have said that without giving away any tells he meant it? For example, perhaps he only said it as a means of getting someone to laugh, hell Klingons might regularly joke about nearly killing people as part of their daily banter. Deanna sensed that Kurn was hoping someone would laugh, and so she obliged.
 
It'd be exhausting feeling the emotions of other people all the time. If I were her, I'd ignore it most of the time. Maybe she does.
 
Maybe she was forcing the response to smooth things over and not give the comment too much attention and ruin the evening? Or maybe she could relate to the sentiment, and has come close to killing Riker herself....

I'd have to watch it again; but I notice a lot in this show that adds context and meaning with more viewings. Like Picard's subtleties reframing Admiral Satie right from the beginning of The Drumhead. Or Data's reactions to the crew's subtle nonverbal responses to him, (say, in the Time Squared dinner chat or maybe the Schisms poetry-related scenes).

Still noticing new things in this show.
 
I think it's just the classic "awkward/nervous laugh," to add some levity to an uncomfortable situation, and quickly move on without dwelling too much on it.

Kor
 
The show tends to ignore Deanna's empathy when it is inconvenient, like in Matter Of Time.

In this case though, Klingons other than Worf approach violence with a spirit of humor and social levity, so Kurn likely had the same surface emotions a human would for a joke.
 
Kurn was quite relaxed when he said that - because Klingons kill and threaten to kill as a matter of course.

That's what Troi sensed and that's what made the season funny.
 
Deanna was laughting because she thought it amusing that Kurn was under the false impression that he could kill Riker. Riker would kick the living shit out of Kurn.

Foolish Klingon.
 
In this case though, Klingons other than Worf approach violence with a spirit of humor and social levity, so Kurn likely had the same surface emotions a human would for a joke.

This would be my first guess too. As Deanna is empathic, that would probably shield her from most, but not all, cultural misunderstandings. It's noticeable she seems to be the only one that laughs, and not Picard and Riker, who are supposed to know Klingon culture at least somewhat. Also, she doesn't laugh the second time around a minute later, when Kurn makes a similar remark towards Geordi.

Then again, it's a bit hard to believe that the Federation and the Klingons would have had decades of peace, if the Klingon attitudes to violence really were that casual.
 
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OK I viewed this one again last night by pure luck of the random draw of the DVD pile. Could not have found it if I wanted to. By the time Kurn says this, he has already made numerous faux pas; though you can't fault his honesty! Troi's reaction to Kurn seems very natural as if she found it genuinely funny. I think she thought he was making a joke; hence her unguarded reaction. When it became clear that Kurn was not in fact joking, her demeanor cooled and she also seemed to regret being sat next to him.
 
Yes, Troi doesn't read minds. Also, there was no deception from Kurn. The whole point of the exercise was tolerance and understanding, and that very much included Klingon violence. After all, that's their thing.

So what happened? Kurn, in a sociable mood, says he decided not to kill Riker. All present realize he might not be kidding. But the important thing is that he didn't do it, and is relaxed about the whole matter now. That's GOOD. It's what they're going for, in this exchange program.

If you're going to get shocked over a Klingon having a violent impulse, why invite one aboard at all?
 
When you're working in another culture's military heirarchy you're the one expected to conform to them just as Riker did in Matter Of Honor.

The peace between the Federation and Klingons is basically an alliance against the Romulans since the Klingons were convinced the Fedration was honorable, and in TNG era became a political necessity. Whereas the Federation is predisposed to be at peace whenever possible.
 
I personally saw Deanna's laughter as an attempt to change the subject. To me, it was like she sensed some conflicts in the persons in the room and used laughter much like her Mother did when she and Deanna were kidnapped by the Ferengi.

So maybe she just used the laugh as a way to disarm Kurn mentally? It was just a thought I had.

It was a good episode.
 
Then again, it's a bit hard to believe that the Federation and the Klingons would have had decades of peace, if the Klingon attitudes to violence really were that casual.

Klingons are only like that with other Klingons. Worf doesn't go around killing everyone on the Enterprise who pisses him off, and neither did Kurn.

And even so, Klingons do have rules about who can challenge a fellow crewmember, and when they can do it. Worf briefed Riker on this before "A Matter of Honor", and Jadzia pointed it out as well before she and Worf served with Martok.
 
Klingons are only like that with other Klingons. Worf doesn't go around killing everyone on the Enterprise who pisses him off, and neither did Kurn.

And even so, Klingons do have rules about who can challenge a fellow crewmember, and when they can do it. Worf briefed Riker on this before "A Matter of Honor", and Jadzia pointed it out as well before she and Worf served with Martok.

Re-checked the script and some support for this idea can be found in the script itself. Kurn does say after Rikers remark 'this is not a Klingon ship, Sir' :
"if it were a Klingon ship, I would have killed you for offering your... "suggestion".

Assuming however that the Feds and the Klingons have been relatively chummy over the last few decades, and Kurn received a proper briefing before going to his Enterprise assignment, it certainly looks like he is trying to troll or provoke the Enterprise crew with his repeated unnecessary 'killing' references. Or some ill-advised attempt at levity after all. (but it doesn't seem like that).
 
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Obviously, it is true that Kurn was "riding the crew pretty hard" as Geordi & Wesley remarked to Cmdr Riker. Kurn made it clear he viewed the culture as soft, and he was going to be as strict as possible with them, push them even unnecessarily (as with an inspection during an engineering maintenance cycle). He was harassing them to establish dominance. And to test their mettle, perhaps to gain insight into his brother's unique character. (To see if Worf could successfully bring a challenge to the High Council.

Riker may have couched his "suggestion" in polite language, but it was a challenge to a superior's judgment in an authoritative command structure. On a Klingon ship, top-down "obey or else" must be the more common communication structure. Kurn cut through the niceties to the heart of the rivalry.

He probably even considered Wesley's defiance of his phrasing "execute" a challenge. Picard's subtle nod of acceptability there seemed to say, "Yes, we've all wanted to kill Wesley, but that would be too easy." ;)

IE, the reality is that Kurn may have had to repress the real impulse to answer Riker's lethal challenge. The assumption of killing Riker was just bravado (or underestimation of the adversary).

Also, Kurn was adapting to their multidirectional feedback structure. There was some humility/team player in him after all.

One issue with Troi is very typical of Hollywood's portrayals of psychologists: they think all shrinks can do is nod, say "and how do you feel about that," state the obvious armchair impression as a diagnosis, play role reversals, and then have personal relationships with their clients.

Troi ought to be doing what the medical staff does during alien encounters: prepare. Maybe hold an orientation briefing once in a while. Not stand around watching fireworks.
 
Klingons relish fighting. I think she thought it was a joke partially because she was an empath. She was feeling the thrill and enjoyment he was getting imagining combat with Riker and misinterpreted the feeling as joy about a funny joke.

P.S. Riker could have so taken Kurn. Kurn was no Worf.
 
IE, the reality is that Kurn may have had to repress the real impulse to answer Riker's lethal challenge. The assumption of killing Riker was just bravado (or underestimation of the adversary).

Rewatched the entire episode since my previous reaction here.

Seems Kurn mainly wanted to go to the Enterprise to find and test his brother, Worf. How? By maximising the contrast between how he treated the crew, and how he treated Worf. Klingon culture was a nice "excuse" to go as harsh on the crew as possible (and as lenient on Worf as possible, knowing that if Worf had any Klingon blood/culture left in him, this would provoke his response).

So yes, the killing talk probably was posturing.
 
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