Romulans and Vulcans genetically speaking

[TheSubCommander]

Cultural differences aside, are Romulans and Vulcans the same genetic species? Several times it is mentioned that Romulans are off-shoots of Vulcans, but it isn't clear if they are their own species, to me.

If they are their own species, why is that? If humans were transplanted to another planet and lived separately for centuries, they would still be considered human. The closest example I can find is the TNG episode Ensigns of Command where a human colony Tau Cygna V had descendents of humans who lived separately from the federation for a century.

The only difference I know of between Romulans and Vulcans is that many Romulans have the V-ridge on their forehead. Is this a evolutionist adaptation, or did they interbreed with another race? If the former, would that make them a subclass of Vulcans, but if the latter, then they would be a hybrid species.

 

[Melakon]

The Memory Alpha article states that Romulans were originally a minority of Vulcans who were opposed to Surak's teachings. In protest, they left the planet about 2000 years before the TOS' timeframe and settled on Romulus and Remus.

 

[Timo]

Whether something is "another species" is a hopeless semantic wrangle nowadays; nobody really knows what it means any more.

But Vulcans and Romulans are definitely biologically different, enough so that starship sensors can tell them apart in "The Enterprise Incident". We just don't know how different - perhaps the same sensors could tell apart human negroids from caucasians to the exact same degree? Or human southpaws from right-of-hands?

While the genetical differences between negroid and caucasian humans are minimal, the same may be true of those of the two vulcanoids. But while the differences in humans are due to extremely slow selection processes, Romulan characteristics would have been harshly selected for and against when the group severed themselves from the general Vulcan population. Perhaps the ridgeheads were driven out because the smoothheaded Surakists thought they were an inferior breed?

Whether this happened or not, the next step might well have been a deliberate process of exaggerating the Romulan characteristics, with the help of the best that Romulan biosciences can offer. Even if the V-ridge was some sort of a horrid disfiguration originally, it would have been enhanced to a ridiculous degree, to be proudly worn by those who left Vulcan behind.

Just for completeness' sake, let's bring up my pet theory that all vulcanoids have those ridges. They are erectile tissue that bulges when you are excited - so no Surakist will be caught dead wearing the facial feature, but aging Romulans take pills to bolster their forehead virility.

As for who and what the Romulans are, the canon record is less than complete. Perhaps the Romulans had already left and colonized a lot of space before the schism with the Surakists came? Perhaps Romulus was the original homeworld of the species, from which Sargon's people transplanted vulcanoids to a variety of less hospitable environments such as Vulcan and Mintaka? Etc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

The Memory Alpha article states ...

Seperating canon from written fiction leaves a lot of details missing.

The show isn't exactly clear as to whether the Romulans are actual emigrants from the planet Vulcan thousand of yours ago. The term offshoot would seem to suggest this, but we've seen a lot of "Humanoids" on the show whose forefathers never set foot on Earth.

 

[SchwEnt]

It does seem strange. The same species on Vulcan, one group leaves in an exodus and a few thousand years later are a different Romulan species?

Two populations separated for a few thousand years isn't enough time to develop into a different species. Is it? Particularly given Vulcan lifespans, how many generations would that be? Hardly enough time.

Unless there is some unknown alien biology factor that can magically explain it.

Or perhaps the Vulcans that left in the exodus were already a different species, perhaps accounting for why they split from Surak and the other Vulcans.

Maybe Vulcans and Romulans existed together as two species, akin to Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens existing together. Only later after they left and founded their Star Empire did they become Romulans. I'm making stuff up, I don't know.

 

[The Wormhole]

Supposedly there are genetic differences, though subtle, there are so many that Dr. Crusher was unable to treat the Romulan in The Enemy in the same manner she would a Vulcan.

 

[BillJ]

I think there was a primitive, native people on Romulus when the Vulcans arrived. Over the course of two millennia, they intermingled and became one people.

 

[TheSubCommander]

As for who and what the Romulans are, the canon record is less than complete. Perhaps the Romulans had already left and colonized a lot of space before the schism with the Surakists came? Perhaps Romulus was the original homeworld of the species, from which Sargon's people transplanted vulcanoids to a variety of less hospitable environments such as Vulcan and Mintaka? Etc.

Or perhaps the Vulcans were colonizing, as Spock suggests in Balance of Terror, and lost contact with the Vulcans who later became Romulans. I tend to ignore Sargon's people because he says his people are similar to Spock's, but even Sargon didn't know. Mintakans, on the other hand, could have been Vulcans, Romulans, or even the Debrune, transplanted by the preservers, or maybe even a lost colony of one of the above, who reverted back to a dark age of some sort.

The Memory Alpha article states ...

Seperating canon from written fiction leaves a lot of details missing.

The show isn't exactly clear as to whether the Romulans are actual emigrants from the planet Vulcan thousand of yours ago. The term offshoot would seem to suggest this, but we've seen a lot of "Humanoids" on the show whose forefathers never set foot on Earth.

Well, I *think* it has been well-enough established and commonly accepted that Romulans are definitely descended from Vulcans. So much so, that Spock went to Romulus under the belief he could reunite the two cultures. You also have the Enterprise episode, where Surak refers to "those who march beneath the raptors wings," when referring to the Vulcans who rejected logic, seems to refer to the ancestors of the Romulans. Interestingly, they seemed to have left Vulcan around in the earth year 470 AD, which was near the time the Western Roman Empire fell (In 476, Romulus Agustus, of the Western Roman Empire, was deposed).

My question is more along the lines of how do the two species differ, and if they are different enough to be two separate and distinct species, or more along the lines of a subspecies.

I think there was a primitive, native people on Romulus when the Vulcans arrived. Over the course of two millennia, they intermingled and became one people.

I never read them, but remember reading on Memory Beta I think, that there was a series of books in which the Romulans did just that. I could buy that explanation, and that would help account for the biological differences of Romulans and Vulcans.

This sort of makes one question whether Remans were those people, or if Remans are any way related to Romulans or Vulcans at all. They look more like Nosteratu than anything else, but they do have mental abilities like some Vulcans, and I believe they have green blood.

 

[Timo]

there are so many that Dr. Crusher was unable to treat the Romulan in The Enemy in the same manner she would a Vulcan.

We don't know if Crusher's troubles stemmed from the patient being a Romulan. That is, it apparently wouldn't have helped if Crusher had had half a dozen Romulans aboard, because statistically these might not have been compatible with the hapless patient, either... The whole compatibility issue appears to be the other way around, with every humanoid species being equally likely to feature compatible and incompatible individuals.

Or perhaps the Vulcans were colonizing, as Spock suggests in Balance of Terror

We don't know if Spock is speaking of interstellar colonization, or of earlier overland colonization. The context would actually suggest the latter, because Spock says the period was "brutal" the same way Earth's colonization period was, and supposedly Earthlings didn't colonize stars with slave galleys.

Vulcan is never credited with actual colonies in any of the shows, and STXI suggests there aren't many Vulcans outside the homeworld in the late 2250s.

Perhaps the concept of "Vulcan colonist" is an oxymoron, and any offworld settlement by definition belongs to an offshoot group such as the Romulans?

transplanted by the preservers

The Preservers were only credited with moving a group of humans around the 19th century; we don't know if they engaged in wider transplanting action. For all we know, they were a small criminal group such as the Briori or the Skagarrans, abducting primitives for slaves, but unlike those other two, they managed to leave behind some propaganda painting themselves as good guys...

I agree, though, that we only have Sargon's word that their species would have been any better, or more purely motivated, or even actually engaged in any transplanting.

My question is more along the lines of how do the two species differ, and if they are different enough to be two separate and distinct species, or more along the lines of a subspecies.

In the real world, the definition of "species" has become blurred down to the point of irrelevance. In Star Trek, we can't even begin to apply the old definition of "those who can produce viable offspring with each other", because that would mean humans, Vulcans, Klingons and for all we know Horta are the same species!

The story of Remans has not been expanded on in canon trek. Natives of Remus? Vulcans who mutated in a hostile environment, or were mutated for it? The original vulcanoids, before they mated with humans and became Vulcans/Mintakans/Rigelians/Romulans/etc.?

The green blood thing is interesting, but can we tell, in the darkly lit movie? Can you point to a specific scene?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[E-DUB]

It boils down, perhaps, to a distinction between "species" and "race". Human beings are all of one species. An Eskimo could interbreed with an African pygmy and produce fertile offspring, so probably Vulcans and Romulans could as well. The differences between the latter could be similar to racial distinctions expressing themselves in the "V" ridges as well as pigmentation. (We've seen black Vulcans and Romulans, as well as some looking like Earth Asiatics.)

 

[Timo]

And we have seen quite a variety of Andorians, distinguished mainly by their antenna styles but also by skin hues. Humans are probably among the species with the least internal variation!

"Fertile offspring" is probably right out as a definition of species when humans can breed with Vulcans - despite having rather radically different biochemistries...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[vulcan redshirt]

Assuming that they started as full-blood Vulcans, unless the Romulans substantially interbred with another species since the departure from Vulcan, they should be biologically nearly identical as the time separated is not long enough for major evolutionary change. The observed differences, such as the ridges, being able to control the worst of the violent impulses without resorting to Surakian logic (they have a well ordered, efficient, technological society, so they can't be simply like Vulcans who have lost emotional control), and also the lack of observed telepathic / mind-meld ability need another explanation. Also given the biological lifespan of Vulcans (hence likely also Romulans) would reduce the number of generations available to evolve the observed changes, I would suggest one or a combination of the following:

Eugenics among the early Romulans, that accelerated the changes

Romulans were, as suggested a similar species, like Neanderthals compared to Humans

Interbreeding with another race during the exodus.

Given the mention of species like the Debrune, and also the presence of Remans, I would veer towards interbreeding, with a bit of eugenics as the explanation for the differences observed.

 

[Timo]

We never learned that the Debrune would have been biologically distinct from either Vulcans or Romulans...

Also, while absence of evidence is generally good evidence of absence, the "Romulans are not telepathic" observation is probably a bit too daring. After all, Vulcans aren't generally telepathic, either - not in public.

Supposedly, Vulcan was war-torn before Surak's teachings took hold. But supposedly, Vulcan also managed to develop at least fission bombs (and probably also interstellar travel, unless they got aliens to help them found the P'Jem monastery) despite this state of affairs. So Romulus need not be all that different from pre-Surakian Vulcan: what we see happening there is simply standard old-fashioned Vulcan existence, possibly with a bit of additional self-control (Surakists did it without having to modify themselves biologically, as far as we know).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TheSubCommander]

Supposedly, Vulcan was war-torn before Surak's teachings took hold. But supposedly, Vulcan also managed to develop at least fission bombs (and probably also interstellar travel, unless they got aliens to help them found the P'Jem monastery) despite this state of affairs. So Romulus need not be all that different from pre-Surakian Vulcan: what we see happening there is simply standard old-fashioned Vulcan existence, possibly with a bit of additional self-control (Surakists did it without having to modify themselves biologically, as far as we know).

But since Vulcans go through Pon far, and as far as we know, Romulans don't, could the repression of emotions over time, have caused some physiological change?

 

[Timo]

Pon farr doesn't affect Vulcan lives much if at all except when it happens; we thus have little reason to think it wouldn't exist on Romulans as well. But Vulcans may take it more seriously, with all sorts of psychosomatic complications.

I don't see how repression of emotions could be inherited, except culturally. Perhaps Surakian Vulcans are under more social stress than other vulcanoids and therefore suffer from ulcers and constipation, but even that shouldn't be something that would pass in your blood. And Romulans would have their own sources of stress, what with living in an apparent police state and all. (Did the Democratic Republic of Germany leave marks in people's genes? Or just lots of athletic bodies ruined by extensive doping?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

IMO the decisions to add ridges to Romulans in TNG was just crazy. They were supposed to look the same as Vulcans.
As regards to plot lines in TNG it would have been better if Romulans could more easily disguise themselves as Vulcans.
I think the makeup artists in TNG were just ridge crazy. Every second race seemed to have ridges and ridges were retrospectlvely put on Romulans and Klingons. I was expecting future humans to suddenly have ridges attached to them.

And they looked ugly.

If they were going to add ridges to Romulans they should have added them to Vulcans too IMO. Thank goodness they didn't.

 

[Timo]

IMO the decisions to add ridges to Romulans in TNG was just crazy. They were supposed to look the same as Vulcans.

Agreed. Not to mention there had been legendary Romulan characters before; redoing the face of the race was in some ways worse than redoing the Klingon trademark face (which had been fluctuating from character to character in TOS already).

If they were going to add ridges to Romulans they should have added them to Vulcans too IMO.

...This in practice meaning putting ridges to Suzie Plakson's "Dr. Selar" face. An interesting idea as such, considering they didn't manage to ruin said face with the "K'Ehleyr" makeup, either.

That'd still leave them with the problem of what to do with Nimoy and Lenard's faces, which remained prime movie material at the time. Add ridges even though it was "too late"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

I didn't mind the Klingon ridges. I didn't even need or wanted an explanation of the difference. I wished they hadn't tried to explain it. Restrospectively in my head thats how Klingons always looked.

I think the TNG Romulans generally looked ugly. Perhaps it was the Vulcan sharp eyebrow and pointed ear combination. Or maybe its just my personal taste.